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OldCurlyWolf wrote: Unless policy has changed, which is possible, Pasadena teaches in their academy that if the front bumper "Breaks the Plane of the intersection" before the light turns red, you have not run the red light.

In case you are wondering, BTDT with PPD. Former LEO. Many years ago.

That's right, Pasadena is front bumper. I guess I don't remember which PD teaches "majority of the vehicle", but I remember thinking that it was a little foolish because it's so subjective.

OldCurlyWolf wrote:

jailbird wrote:

bagman45 wrote:Get rid of ALL of them!!! Complete revenue grab. Do a bit of research; most are issued for failure to come to a complete stop while turning right on a red light. No danger to anyone, but annoying and expensive for those who choose to pay them....

And that is EXACTLY what happened to me in Plano. Stopped at a red light approaching US-75, cross traffic JUST got a green light and was about to start. I could safely go so I did, and got a ticket for failure to stop because they claim I wasn't completely stopped for a full 2 seconds.

Yes, I realize technically I did break the law by not stopping for a full 2 seconds before turning, but it was completely safe, nobody was in any harm in any way, it was just a monkey grab.

Per some admittedly incomplete research, the 2 second rule you mentioned, DOES NOT EXIST.

Here are a couple of places I looked.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_long_shoul ... sign_in_TX

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... TN.544.htm

OCW is correct. The traffic laws use the phrase "shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop before entering". Nowhere is there a minimum time for the "stop. You vehicle must not be in motion. Nowhere in the state law is there a requirement for a minimum length of time for the stop. On a side note, there is no legal requirement for you to stop at any point in a yellow light. The laws are pretty vague regarding stopping at the transition from yellow to red (often left to interpretation of the officer and/or judge). For example, in Pasadena SOP is if most of your car is past the entrance of the intersection before it turns red they will generally let you go (or the judge will dismiss). Deer Park, however, will ticket and convict if any of your car isn't past the entrance of the intersection. Oddly enough, there is no regulation regarding a "buffer time" between one direction turning red and the other green. Some municipalities have their lights change simultaneously, others allow a second or two for traffic clearing through the intersection.

Jusme wrote:

apvonkanel wrote:

Abraham wrote:What about privately run prisons?

Would they be considered a type of outsourcing law enforcement or come under another type category?

While this may get a lot of grief, I believe that the original order to stop using corporate prisons was phenomenal. Privatization of Justice has had a ridiculously detrimental impact on the legal system as a whole. When corporations profit from others' crimes, they pass the incentives on to legislators when it comes to keeping their noses in our business. They then pass the cost on to us as tax payers.

Not to be argumentative, but from all reports that I have seen, private prisons, actually save the taxpayer money per inmate. All construction costs are absorbed by the corporation, as well as payroll, maintenance costs, utility bills, etc. Every employee pays taxes, and the local economies around them, benefit from people moving in to live close to their jobs, and buying local goods and services. They have a much better record when it comes to escape and escape attempts. Additionally as a corporation, they have to pay corporate income tax to the IRS. So even with property tax incentives, the tax payers come out ahead. Private prisons cannot increase sentences, for prisoners, nor shorten them. They have no influence on the judicial system, at all, that I am aware of. While it may appear unseemly to profit from the incarceration of criminals, I don't have any objections to it. JMHO

Oh yeah, that I agree with, but it's because they cherry-pick the lower cost inmates (they don't handle those with higher medical expenses, etc.). The cost passed to us is through the fact that they lobby for unneeded laws, and stricter penalties, therefore making more money by having more inmates.

Abraham wrote:What about privately run prisons?

Would they be considered a type of outsourcing law enforcement or come under another type category?

While this may get a lot of grief, I believe that the original order to stop using corporate prisons was phenomenal. Privatization of Justice has had a ridiculously detrimental impact on the legal system as a whole. When corporations profit from others' crimes, they pass the incentives on to legislators when it comes to keeping their noses in our business. They then pass the cost on to us as tax payers.

Liberty wrote:

OldCurlyWolf wrote: Having been a LEO, written a number of tickets for the red light runners and studied the law on this, I TOTALLY disagree on this subject.

The main objection is that they do NOT meet the burden of proof of evidence presented to actually obtain a conviction if brought to court and they cannot be attributed to the driver. A person can commit a crime or offense. An INANIMATE object cannot perform ANY action without outside direction or operation.

ERGO, they are actions against the basic legal premises of this country.

What about parking violations? Just curious.

That's a great question. Is this because the cameras don't verify the driver? I was wondering the same thing about toll road violators, but I think that might also be part of the blurred lines between public vs. private road (which is also a great example of how dangerous the privatization of public resources can be).

Pawpaw wrote:

warnmar10 wrote:

Pawpaw wrote:

doncb wrote:It's called paying attention and being aware of what is going on around you. If the light has been red for 2 or 3 seconds and you blow through you have no excuse.

Horse hockey. I drive a 7,000 lb. diesel pickup. From 40 or 45 mph, safely stopping within 2 or 3 seconds might be possible on an absolutely perfect road surface. It ain't gonna happen on anything less that perfect conditions.

You need to slow down.

That's rich. I gave up speeding many years ago. I'm the guy everyone else gets irritated at because I drive the speed limit or less.

I've been that guy since I was about 25. Too many speeding tickets I couldn't afford, and an accident or two I couldn't prevent because of my driving habits. I used to be one of those guys that considered myself a great driver because I could swerve and avoid anything. Then I realized that great drivers don't just avoid accidents with their own vehicles, but also drive in a manner that avoids accidents for others.

Now, when you shorten the time of yellow lights (which has been documented and previously mentioned), not only are you increasing red-light camera revenue, you're also increasing the risk for drivers like me and Pawpaw. We WANT to be safe and respectful drivers. I also want to treat my car well by being able to slow down without slamming on the brakes. When you give us proper advanced notice of an immanent red light we (taking Pawpaw at his word here) slow down with a safe amount of time to spare. With a short yellow, we pose a risk not only to ourselves and cross-traffic if we can't slow down in time, but also to the drivers behind us (and again ourselves) if we are able to slam on our brakes and stop before the intersection. Sure, if they had a proper following distance it wouldn't be an issue, but if only 9 out of 10 drivers maintain proper following distance all ten are at risk. Everything's bigger in Texas, except snowmen and following distance.

Also, they were already ruled unconstitutional by the city of Houston. Due to the contract the city of Houston had with owners of the cameras they weren't able to take them down. Increased police force if you want greater safety, but red-light cameras completely bypass the entire legal system.