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by ScottDLS
Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:58 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment
Replies: 46
Views: 9433

Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

Rob72 wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:03 pm
SewTexas wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:15 pm too much of this is getting really, really close to "thought" crime....it's kinda scary. You can't prosecute before the crime y'all
I've largely stayed out of this, because it really is a moot point. There is waaaay too much gang influence for a serious challenge to be mounted.
If I have a 10" AR upper and an operational rifle lower, I have "constructive intent" to possess an unregistered SBR. If I have a file-formed 1/4" bar of 1015 steel with a spring, I have an unregistered fully automatic weapon. Period. End of story. Perhaps I just, "want a cool toy without all that cost..."

Perhaps. I have no reason to own an unregistered SBR/FA, unless I intend to do harm. I have shown willingness to risk mandatory Fed time, and total financial dissolution for my "interest". If I'm really dumb, that's really sad. Most unregistered SBR/FA DIYs are not used innocently.

All government agencies have regs on the books criminalizing "intent," because (oh, my gosh!), it might be better to stop some acts before they happen.

https://chicagoganghistory.com/gang/gangster-disciples/
In these types of laws the intent is only an element of the crime that must be proven TOGETHER with the physical possession of the proscribed item (a drop in auto-sear, if I interpret your second example correctly). If you instead joined a "gang" called the Unregistered Auto Sear Possessors and got a tat of a machine gun shooting a guy in an ATF jacket, you would merely be engaging in a Constitutionally protected (albeit dumb) activity. :rules:
by ScottDLS
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:23 am
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment
Replies: 46
Views: 9433

Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

The Annoyed Man wrote: Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:07 am Maybe I should have used another example? :mrgreen:

Let’s try another one ... under Texas law, if your brother is a known Crip, but you are not, are you “gang affiliated”, and how does his membership affect your gun rights?

Also, by what part of due process in the law is an entire gang and all of its members judged to be criminals? I guess what I mean is, who actually makes that decision, and how is due process for the individual members observed in the breach? I mean... criminals or not, they DO have constitutional rights, don’t they?

CAVEAT: I am not personally sympathetic to gangs either, and I’m not so naive as to not understand what they are about. I believe them to be the stain in society’s underwear.

But to be defined by the law as a criminal, does not an individual actor have to actually have committed a crime and then be convicted of it, or at the very least, have to have actually conspired to commit that specific crime? It defies logic to claim that ALL members of a given gang - which may have thousands of members - have individual knowledge of the conspiracy to commit a specific crime. If there are East Side Crips and West Side Crips, and the city is a megalopolis like Houston, it’s entirely reasonable to believe that the guys on the East Side have know way of knowing about the planning and execution of the crime of robbing a liquor store on the West Side. So how are they even conspirators?

Maybe is a chicken/egg thing....... :lol:
:iagree: :iagree:

Most succinct statement of the point in the thread! :tiphat:
by ScottDLS
Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:09 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment
Replies: 46
Views: 9433

Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

Rob72 wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:20 pm
SewTexas wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:44 pm
Rob72 wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:31 pm
Flightmare wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:27 pm In that case, prosecute the person if they have committed one of the crimes listed above. Association should not be a crime.
Participation in gang activity, "pledging in", is a public statement of agreement and support of, the activities of the gang. If you don't believe criminal activity is a valid lifestyle, why would you be a member of a gang? Great retirement benefits?
read your other comment and you'll get your answer, if that doesn't help, read mine.
Ex-EMT, ex-Corrections, ex-Ryan White/Infectious Diseases Nurse, current rehab sponsor. I understand gangs and their activities.
Please understand, the most fantastic legal acts of self-gratification will not change two facts: 1) gangs thrive where they are tolerated, 2) if you're a "virgin" in a gang, you're first tag for a high-value felony, as you'll (generally) serve the least time, and get your real training while you're in-house.

Regarding the current legal status of gang membership, legality is largely because the populace would not tolerate war in the streets for the (short) time it would take to eradicate most of them. Legally, the case law does exist to pursue making membership illegal, there is simply no will. E.g., if possession=intent, membership=intent. Again, we can play hypothetical all day, but the bottom line is that "gangs" are not social clubs, with benign social goals.
Perhaps there is no "will" because it would be (IMO) blatant disregard of the 1st and 5th amendments (at a minimum) to make membership and association illegal. What "case law" exists that allows for creation of such a statutory law? I'm assuming it would be Constitutional case law, upholding a similar statute elsewhere (i.e. another state). You could make an argument for application of federal RICO, but that doesn't automatically criminalize membership, it simply allows prosecution of the person/persons that direct certain illegal activity.
by ScottDLS
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:57 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment
Replies: 46
Views: 9433

Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

RoyGBiv wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:43 pm If I start a "gang" and we all ride motorcycles and help old people carry groceries to their cars at WalMart, Then I get to keep 1A and 2A.

If I start a "gang" and we go out robbing people and selling drugs, that is not only a "gang" but also a "criminal organization", which is a violation of LTC.

I don't see a lot of gray in this.. but.. :confused5
If you create a "gang" and then members of that "gang" go about committing crimes, then they (the particular members) are violating the law by definition...robbing, shooting, etc. You MAY be committing a crime if you conspire with, facilitate, and/or encourage others to commit crimes. The membership or "association" with the "gang", short of specifically prohibited acts would seem to be a Constitutionally protected activity. Who makes the adjudication of whether someone is a "member" of a criminal street gang? Does it require due process before depriving someone of some rights due to membership in such? I see a lot of gray areas. :confused5
by ScottDLS
Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:11 pm
Forum: Gun and/or Self-Defense Related Political Issues
Topic: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment
Replies: 46
Views: 9433

Re: Interesting question involving both 1st & 2nd Amendment

rotor wrote: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:12 pm I have always wondered how gang membership could be outlawed. Some might say NRA membership should be outlawed. Interesting and I don't have an answer.
The way I understand it, it is not currently outlawed in Texas. The restriction that was put on "criminal street gang" members was that they cannot carry under the Motorist Protection Act. In legal terms, they violate PC 46.02 by carrying in their motor vehicles without a LTC. Since they can still obtain a LTC (assuming they meet other criteria), I guess the thought is that their rights are not being denied due to their membership. To me it seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction to make something illegal, due to your participation in a (theoretically) First Amendment protected activity. If you can't make membership in the "gang" itself illegal, then why do you get to put other arbitrary restrictions on members? Perhaps this was added to MPA to get by some hurdle in the Legislature. If we get a "permitless carry" bill this session, look for something like this in it too maybe?

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