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thetexan wrote:.....if the perpetrator knew his stuff he would not be intimidated by the threat...unless he thought you were a psycho crazed out-of-you-mind, lunatic, trigger-happy, death-loving maniac.

Then you might have his undivided attention.

tex

Hey, I can act!

RPBrown wrote:Lets throw another little hiccup into the equation. All the same except you go into the house through the garage and the thief is inside your home.
Scenario # 1--Has a TV in hand but no visible weapon
Scenario # 2--Same as # 1 but has a holstered pistol

Scenario #1 — I draw weapon and block exit, take a cellphone picture, order him to put it down and tell him I'll step aside if he complies and let him leave peaceably. Call 911 when he leaves. He'll either leave, or we go to #2A.

Scenario #2A — I draw weapon as I enter room and block exit, get cellphone picture, order him to get down on the ground, and tell him if I see him even twitch, I'll dump a magazine-load into him. Call 911 and tell them that I am holding an armed burglar at gunpoint. He has a holstered gun, and I WILL do whatever I need to do if he so much as twitches, PLEASE get the cops here STAT! Better get an ambulance rolling too just in case.

Scenario #2B — I draw weapon as I enter room and get cellphone picture, back out of the house, call 911 and report an armed burglary in progress inside my home. To the naysayers: Yes, I already KNOW that I have the right to stand my ground. I ALSO already KNOW that I don't want to get into a gunfight over a television. As long as his hands are full of my TV, he can't draw his weapon (I have large TVs), and that gives me an opportunity to avoid a gunfight.........over a stupid TV.

Scenario #2C — I draw my weapon as I enter room and block exit, he drops TV and attempts to draw his weapon. I drill him 15 times before he can get his into action, reload, call 911 and ask for police and an ambulance.

ScottDLS wrote:On a more serious note (from my last post). It seems Texas law allows for deadly force in protection of property, or against criminal mischief at night. I wonder if this is because deadly force doesn't HAVE to kill someone, only have the potential/possibility to.

Maybe it dates back to the cattle rustling or horse thief days. If you're in the middle of the wilderness and someone steals your horse, you may very well be dead. In that case there seems some moral as well as legal justification for shooting someone, in defense of property. As far as a TV...maybe legally justified. Morally...between you and your creator.

One situation where I might be willing to take a life is for strong arm robbery. If someone demands my wallet, clearly outsizes me, and threatens violence if they don't get it, I might shoot them. Even if I can replace the contents easily. Another situation, rape. I wouldn't hesitate to take a life even if my wasn't in danger. And I HAVE taken the LTC course multiple times...

Those are good points, and that is why good judgement is a necessary component for someone who wants to carry a gun. The above comment about being willing to kill someone over a stolen TV is EXACTLY the kind of ammunition that gun-grabbers scout this forum for, trying to find arguments for why carrying of a firearm should never be permitted.

The ethical consideration ought to be, "will the loss of this property threaten my health and/or safety"? I see no harm in drawing a gun to try and coerce the thief into putting the TV down, but if he calls my bluff, then the only steps I am willing to take would be to smack him hard with a 2x4 across the shins ..... or some similar action ..... to try and stop him. I have no compunctions about causing him pain. But I'm not willing to kill a man over a stupid TV, and I would consider anyone who is so willing to have a severely crippled moral compass with no sense of proportionality. What would that person do to his own kids for filching a couple of bucks out of his wallet when he wasn't looking? Put them in a hospital with broken bones? A person who has no sense of proportionality shouldn't ever raise kids or own a dog.

Now, if I am a very ill outpatient, with a home dialysis machine or a home chemotherapy setup, or some similar kind of medical equipment that would be not only difficult to replace, but that that would put my life at risk to be without it, and someone tried to steal it, then maybe I would go ahead and shoot that person if he disregarded my order to put it down and get down on the ground. If it was an armed robbery attempt, then regardless of what kind of property it was, I would probably shoot if given the opportunity........but in that case, it has nothing to do with the value of the property, and everything to do with being threatened with deadly force.

When you HAVE to shoot someone, then yes, it is THAT person's actions which brought about their being shot. But that justification doesn't work when you don't HAVE to do it.......and you don't HAVE to shoot someone over a TV. The law may permit it, but if you push that boundary too far, you're a moral cripple, and don't be surprised if law enforcement authorities don't share your moral sense (or lack thereof).

But over a TV?

KC5AV wrote:I have always told my students that if I come home and see someone walking out my front door with my TV, I'd hold the door for them (maybe some slight hyperbole). Stuff can be replaced. Don't get me wrong; I like stuff, but I don't own anything that I'd be willing to take a life over.

The other side of the coin is that, if they try to come in uninvited while I'm home, all bets are off.

THIS ^^

That's why I have homeowners insurance.

And a shotgun.

thetexan wrote:Let's say he has a bag of your golf clubs in his hands.

tex

Pull the 9 iron out of the bag, wind up, and let him have it across the shins full force. If that doesn't work, grab a 4 wood and hit him in the crotch. If that doesn't work whack him across the bridge of the nose with your putter.

I'm only half kidding. I don't mind hitting someone who is stealing property out of my garage with some kind of facsimile of a "big stick".......but I'm NOT going to shoot someone over a bag of golf clubs. It's just not worth it. I hate golf.

thetexan wrote:As you pull into your driveway during the day you notice a person coming out of your garage. You stop and get out and pull gun and tell him to freeze which he does. You call the police and they are on their way.

The intruder then decides to casually start to walk away disputed the fact that you are pointing the gun at him and telling him don't move.

What do you do?

tex

Does he have any of my property in his hands? If not, get out my cellphone, take a picture, and let him walk. I do NOT want to get physical and go to ground with him. When the cops come, show them the picture. They'll find him. If his arms are full of my television, it's easy enough to take a bat to his shins, which will likely stop him AND make him drop the TV.