Search found 6 matches

by Charles L. Cotton
Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:01 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: What to expect in Harris County for Car-Carry without CHL
Replies: 42
Views: 4766

one eyed fatman wrote:I use the term freaky loosely. Hopefully no one was offended.
Not al all. I thought it was pretty funny. :lol:

The situation with HPD now will apparently be different than prior to the passage of HB823. It appears that HPD officers will now routinely ask drivers if they have any weapons in the car, so this scenario is more likely to occur.

Chas.
by Charles L. Cotton
Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:47 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: What to expect in Harris County for Car-Carry without CHL
Replies: 42
Views: 4766

stevie_d_64 wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Tripp called Rosenthal's opposition a case of "sour grapes ... and a threat to the general public."
I would definitely take Alice's comment to the bank...

Charles...Do you think your compadre Mr. "D.H.", might consider taking a paycut and run against Chuck next time??? I would support that campaign without a doubt...

Just a crazy armchair lawyer idea... ;-) ;-)
I seriously doubt it; he's too young for that office. I am going to have lunch with him sometime and I plan to broach the subject.

Chas.
by Charles L. Cotton
Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:10 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: What to expect in Harris County for Car-Carry without CHL
Replies: 42
Views: 4766

Here's another one. This one is more explicit concerning HPD following Rosenthal's lead.

Chas.

Aug. 30, 2005, 1:35AM
DA opposed to new handgun law

Pistol-toting drivers without a permit will still be prosecuted, Rosenthal warns

By CLAY ROBISON
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle Austin Bureau

AUSTIN - Motorists arrested for carrying pistols in their cars without a concealed handgun license will continue to be prosecuted in Houston, despite a new law that purports to give them a legal defense, Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal said Monday.
Although the sponsor said the law should reduce the number of arrests for unlawful handgun possession, Rosenthal said it won't change enforcement practices in Houston after it goes into effect on Thursday.

"It is still going to be against the law for (unlicensed) persons to carry handguns in autos," the district attorney said, adding that the new legal defense can still be challenged by prosecutors.

The new law, enacted during the regular legislative session last spring, seeks to clarify a longtime law that allowed Texans to carry handguns while traveling, a qualification that was subject to a number of inconsistent court interpretations over the years.

The new statute says a person is "presumed to be traveling" if he or she is in a private vehicle, is not engaged in criminal activity (except for a minor traffic offense), is not prohibited by any other law from possessing a firearm and is not a member of a criminal street gang.

It also requires the handgun to be concealed in the car, although weapons can be discovered by officers during routine traffic stops if a driver gives permission for a car to be searched or opens a glove compartment where a gun is secured to retrieve an insurance card or other documentation.

"The intent of the law is to keep innocent people from going to jail," said the sponsor, Rep. Terry Keel, R-Austin, a former prosecutor and former Travis County sheriff who now is a candidate for the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals.

The law, House Bill 823, was supported by the National Rifle Association and the American Civil Liberties Union and opposed by various law-enforcement groups.

More than 237,000 Texans have concealed handgun licenses. But many other law-abiding adults don't have licenses because they are disqualified by exceptions that have nothing to do with public safety, said Alice Tripp, a lobbyist for the Texas State Rifle Association, an NRA affiliate.

Tripp said people who have defaulted on student loans, who owe the state sales tax or franchise tax payments or are behind in child support payments are ineligible to receive a license.

Keel said he hoped the law will prompt police officers to think twice about arresting motorists who meet the new legal presumption and spare them the expense and "indignity" of arrest and prosecution.

Otherwise, he said, "They basically are going to arrest innocent people and make them prove their innocence."

Rosenthal and Rob Kepple, executive director of the Texas District and County Attorneys Association, disagreed.

Rosenthal said the new presumption about "traveling" doesn't define what constitutes traveling and can be challenged in court by prosecutors, leaving it to juries to decide verdicts "based upon the facts of the case."

A prosecutor could summon witnesses to successfully argue that a defendant wasn't traveling because he was simply "driving around the corner for a carton of milk," Kepple said.

"I really don't think (the law) should affect how police officers respond in arresting somebody," he [Rosenthal] added.

Houston Police Department spokeswoman Johanna Abad indicated Houston police were going to take their advice from Rosenthal's office.

Unlawful possession of a weapon is a class A misdemeanor punishable by as much as one year in county jail and a $4,000 fine. Rosenthal said most cases are resolved through plea bargains.

The prosecutor said he asked Gov. Rick Perry to veto the bill because "taking weapons off the street is a pretty good deal." He said his office handled about 5,000 weapons cases of varying degrees of severity last year.

Tripp called Rosenthal's opposition a case of "sour grapes ... and a threat to the general public."

clay.robison@chron.com

Subscribe for less than 30 cents a day!

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archi ... 05_3899161
by Charles L. Cotton
Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:46 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: What to expect in Harris County for Car-Carry without CHL
Replies: 42
Views: 4766

Here is a copy and link to an HPD press release on the new "traveling presumption." I'm sure there are others, but I don't have time to look for them now. It does not contain a reference to reliance upon Rosenthal's interpretation that was in Hurtt's TV appearance, but it makes it clear that 1) the presumption doesn't prevent an arrest; and 2) they are going to call the Harris County DA's office to see if a UCW charge will be appropriate. Based upon Rosenthal's position on this issue, everyone knows the answer will be "yes."

Also, please note the sentence that says “A Houston police officer will speak with a motorist and conduct a thorough investigation to determine if the motorist was in the course of "traveling, . . ." The officer won’t be limiting his investigation to determination whether ir not the driver met the five elements of the presumption. Three of the five elements of the presumption can be determined by the officer without questioning the driver. Was he/she in a car; was he or she engaged in criminal activity other than traffic and was the handgun in plain view? The only thing left for the officer to determine is whether the driver is a convicted felon, or otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms, or a member of a “criminal street gang� as defined in TPC Chp. 71.

Formal control notwithstanding, HPD is following Rosenthal's lead on this issue.

Chas.

Houston Police To Enforce Unlawful Carrying of Weapons

September 1, 2005 -- Generally, Texas law prohibits a person from carrying a weapon in a motor vehicle unless that person is "traveling," complying with another defense under the law, or is a concealed handgun license holder.

While the penal code does not specifically define "traveling," Texas case law provides guidance regarding this matter. House Bill 823 creates a presumption in Section 2.05 of the Texas Penal Code that a person is "traveling" in certain circumstances. A person is presumed to be traveling if he or she is:

* In a private vehicle
* Not otherwise engaged in criminal activity other than a traffic offense
* Not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm, being a felon
* Not a member of a criminal street gang
* Not carrying a handgun in plain view

This change does not prevent law enforcement officers from arresting a person who is in a motor vehicle for carrying a handgun under Section 46.02 of the Texas Penal Code if the person is not "traveling."

A Houston police officer will speak with a motorist and conduct a thorough investigation to determine if the motorist was in the course of "traveling," should a weapon be located in a vehicle. Officers will then contact the Harris County District Attorney's office to determine if the charge of unlawfully carrying a weapon is appropriate.

9-01-05

For additional information, please contact the HPD Public Affairs Division at 713-308-3200.

http://www.houstontx.gov/police/nr/nr090105-1.htm
by Charles L. Cotton
Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:16 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: What to expect in Harris County for Car-Carry without CHL
Replies: 42
Views: 4766

txinvestigator wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I

As to which agencies will make the arrests, the only information I have is that the Houston Police Dept. has publically stated that its officers will arrest anyone carrying a handgun without a CHL, based upon Rosenthal's interpretation of the new law.
I would be very interested in reading that. What I DID read was that officers would make arrests for UCW as per the law, and that if a person did not meet the traveling requirement they were SUBJECT to arrest. I have seen NO reference that they would follow Rosenthal's interpretation.

If I am wrong I 'll eat a big plate a crow and admit it. ;)
I didn't see anything in print from HPD. I saw a TV interview with HPD Chief Hurtt where he said HPD would make UCW arrests, based upon the Harris County DA's "evaluation" of the "new traveling law."

Chas.
by Charles L. Cotton
Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:58 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: What to expect in Harris County for Car-Carry without CHL
Replies: 42
Views: 4766

I believe Rosenthal is up for re-election in 2008. Unless someone runs against him and wins in the Republican Primary, he will be re-elected.

As to which agencies will make the arrests, the only information I have is that the Houston Police Dept. has publically stated that its officers will arrest anyone carrying a handgun without a CHL, based upon Rosenthal's interpretation of the new law. I'm sure other agencies will follow suit, but only time will tell.

Rosenthal could have avoided this problem by simply stating that his office would not accept charges against anyone that appeared to meet the five elements of HB823. He chose not to and his claim that he's merely trying to keep good people from being arrested is damage control, pure and simple. Remember, he fought like a tiger to kill this bill, then when he was ignored, he lobbied the Governor to veto it and was again ignored. If it really didn't change anything, why did he put up such a fight? Could his current campaign against "car carry" be sour grapes, or perhaps wounded pride?

In fairness to Rosenthal, he is correct when he states that we are dealing with a presumption and presumptions are to be proven in court. However, defenses are also to be proven in court and having a CHL or being a peace officer are also defenses to a UCW charge. (There is case law that holds the "Nonapplicability" provisions of TPC 46.15 are "defenses" rather than "exceptions.") Thus, a CHL or a peace officer can be arrested for UCW and brought to trial where they would have to prove their "defense." No LEO in their right mind would make an arrest under those circumstances, no ADA would accept charges and any judge would throw out the charges if the first two did! So while he is technically correct, Rosenthal’s argument is disingenuous. The problem is easily avoided, refuse charges unless the officer observes that one of the five elements is not met. God do I miss Johnny Holmes' intellectual honesty and leadership!

Some good may come out of this yet. I suspect many in the Legislature are going to be very upset and insulted that Rosenthal and some other DA’s around the State are thumbing their collective noses at the Legislative intent behind HB823. It’s much like the City of Mission taking the position that they don’t care what SB501 said, they’re going to post 30.06 signs on city property and to heck with the law! Meanwhile, we need to help Keel get elected to the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, we need to support a bill I anticipate will be filed in 2007 ;-) , and we need to make sure people don’t forget about Rosenthal by 2008.

And by all means, if you qualify for a CHL, then get one!!

Paladin, I know you baited me into this - and it worked! :smash: I bet Steve put you up to it.

Regards,
Chas.

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