TexasCHLforum.com

Mike S wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:44 pm

srothstein wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:23 pm

Jim Beaux wrote: ↑Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:40 pm IMO There is not a lot of clarity as to what happened, but it appears the victim made provocative contact with the shooter. In Texas this is assault/offensive touch.

PENAL CODE

TITLE 5. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PERSON

CHAPTER 22. ASSAULTIVE OFFENSES

Sec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;
(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or
(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/SOTW ... /PE.22.htm

I agree that he appears to have poked the shooter, which, under Texas law, is a simple assault or possibly and assault bodily injury (if the shooter felt any pain at all, it would be bodily injury). It is also debatable that, under Texas law, the man entered the shooter's occupied vehicle. Our current law, in Chapter 9, does not define "enter" though in other chapters (30 for example), it includes any portion of the body. Both of these under our law would justify using force to defend yourself.

But, under 9.32, neither of these justify deadly force being used. It requires the attacker to be about to use unlawful deadly force or commit a list of crime, none of which is assault or even aggravated assault. From the video, even if the deceased is the initiator of the argument, I do not believe the shooting would be justified in Texas. I find it hard to believe Illinois has easier laws justifying shooting than Texas does.

The short video at the link above doesn't give much context to what actually transpired, so it's hard to say if there could have been a reasonable belief by the driver that force or deadly force would have been justified. I'm thinking since the poke (assault) had already occurred & wasn't continuing, then barring any other unknown factors the "immediacy" requirement of the justification may had no longer existed.

As Steve pointed out, there's no legal justification of using deadly force to protect against a simple assault.

But, TPC 9.32 actually does include the same presumption of reasonableness for using deadly force against someone who unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully & with force, the defenders occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business (or to prevent murder, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated kidnapping). You lose this presumption of reasonableness if you provoked the person, or if the defender was committing a crime (other than a Class C traffic violation) at the time the force was used. (( TPC 9.32(B) ))

My thoughts are that once the attack has broken off and the attacker has begun to retreat, deadly force self defense turns into "pay back" deadly force. So if someone walks up, slugs me and then starts walking off, I can't shoot them and claim I was in fear of my life. But who knows. The law often does not coincide with common sense or even my belief system of what is right or wrong. As much as I would want payback, something in me won't allow me to blast a person who is in retreat after slugging me.

I am not saying self defense or not but I did noticed when asked about the the dead guy, his friend responded with this.

'I don't know if it surprised me, of if I just – I know if he didn't, he would be here today. Scott made mistakes, he did. He wasn't perfect by any means.'

. To me it is like saying Scott had no problem getting into altercations.

RoyGBiv wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:04 pm

howdy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:25 am Look at that middle picture. Sure looks like he has a weapon in his hand.

That looks more like an extended index finger from the poke than a weapon. I can't help but think if it was a weapon, we would be reading about him shooting a guy in a car that produced a gun.

jerry_r60 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 9:10 am

03Lightningrocks wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 5:50 pm Let's just draw an analogy here. You are walking down the isle in a grocery store when someone approaches you utilizing mean words. They then give you a shove and back away. Would you pull out your gun, shoot them and then be able to claim self defense? I am asking with sincerity. I would not employ deadly force over something like this, but could I? I always considered my firearm as a tool to defend myself or loved ones from a threat to mine or their lives. I don't see harsh words or even a shove a threatening to my life. I would not take a beating as that could kill me. But a simple shove or even a punch and then retreat? Do you folks remember the guy in Florida who was arguing with some woman when her boyfriend/husband approached and punched him to the ground? He pulled his gun, killed the guy and tried to claim self defense. I think he is in jail right now.

In your walmart scenario I do not think you can pull your gun and shoot. A related analogy to this car situation and your walmart one. You have your scenario of someone uses mean words and pushes you so you pull your gun but don't shoot. You pull it "as a warning" or to be prepared. It's my opinion at that point that you yourself have threatened deadly force and lose any self defense claim. Another way to say pull it as a warning is pull it as a threat.

In the case of the car it's a little different state by state I think. In IL I understand your car is not the same as in your house. I understand here in Texas I understand being in your car is like being in your house.

Another interesting question would be, who started it? Does it matter? I have had folks start raging on me and I had no idea what I did to set them off. I always just back away from it if they let me. Maybe the guy in the car was messing with him. Break checking him and speeding up so he couldn't get around him. In my store analogy, if I instigated the fellow who pushed me, I lose my right to use deadly force. No?

Let's just draw an analogy here. You are walking down the isle in a grocery store when someone approaches you utilizing mean words. They then give you a shove and back away. Would you pull out your gun, shoot them and then be able to claim self defense? I am asking with sincerity. I would not employ deadly force over something like this, but could I? I always considered my firearm as a tool to defend myself or loved ones from a threat to mine or their lives. I don't see harsh words or even a shove a threatening to my life. I would not take a beating as that could kill me. But a simple shove or even a punch and then retreat? Do you folks remember the guy in Florida who was arguing with some woman when her boyfriend/husband approached and punched him to the ground? He pulled his gun, killed the guy and tried to claim self defense. I think he is in jail right now.

RoyGBiv wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:22 pm

philip964 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:19 pm https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2022 ... streamwood

The driver in the Ford approached Mattison’s vehicle and shot him.

Um.... Great reporting there.
Didn't bother watching the video, apparently.

That one confused me a bit at first. I thought the reporter was talking about some other shooting. I actually looked at the location again and realized the story was off.

puma guy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 10:17 pm

Flightmare wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 9:10 pm I can't tell from the video if the guy outside the vehicle was actually reaching for the driver's gun, attempting to push him, or reaching to collect something (like exchanging insurance). There is so little information in this video, and it's VERY easy to take it out of context. I hear what sounds like the car radio of the vehicle the dash cam is mounted in, but cannot hear what was said between the 2 involved in this incident.

His body position puts him in a awkward posture if he was attempting to grab something. Left arm at his side, stooped at an angle and his arm was retracted before the guy shot him 5 times. Stop motioned the video. It looked to me like his hand was level with the driver's shoulder and he made a sort of poke. His arm was definitely away from the window and his hand was palm down, fingers extended as if he just finished a poking when the guy opened fire. I say bad shoot.

That was how it looked to me as well. It kind of looked like he reached in and poked the guy on his shoulder. I will be surprised if they call this self defense. The shooters life did not appear to be in danger at all. Personally, I would not shoot a guy for poking me on the shoulder or even giving me a shove during an argument. Especially if he backed away after doing it. I would first try to de-escalate but maybe the guy in the car got scared...or mad. Is scared grounds for self defense. "Fear for your life". But then don't you have to show reasonable cause to fear for your life. I know mad is not a defense to use deadly force.

With so many people carrying firearms in their cars and some or many of them being irrational, I avoid road rage situations with all my being. My one self defense shooting situation was a road rage. The guy was not going to let me get away. It ended up in self defense no bill. I walked but nobody was killed either. The Dallas County grand jury determined he was using his vehicle as a deadly weapon. Fortunately the guys passenger spilled the beans and reported what the driver was saying as he tried to run me off the Tollway multiple times. The driver had been drinking and was a "mean drunk" type guy. In this video, it appears the guy in the car stopped and awaited confrontation with a firearm. I dunno. Could go either way.

deleted...double post. Sorry

puma guy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:26 pm

philip964 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:25 pm https://redstatenation.com/video-man-ge ... f-defense/

The article asks is this self defense. The man shot was the one out of his car with his head inside the window of the other car.

I would say it is self defense. Had the man outside his car had brought a gun with him and stuck it in the car, and the man in the car tried to grab it, and the man outside the car shot and killed the man inside the car it would not be self defense but murder.

I don't see self defense in that video. The truck guys arm and hand were out of the window and he had disengaged from the vehicle posing no threat. IMHO

I agree with you. I do see a whole lot of stupid. Getting out of your vehicle to confront another driver in a road rage situation is a real dumb move.