Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

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Vol Texan
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Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#1

Post by Vol Texan »

A few weeks ago, I started a series of calls to the RSD asking about 18 year olds getting licenses. I kept getting "we don't allow it, and that's the guidance we've been given" from each person. The responses were friendly (as the RSD always seems to be), but they were not really digging deeper into my inquiry.

A few calls later, I finally reached Mr. Todd Schmidt (the hero of this story) who actually listened. I told him about the ruling, and he told me that they'd not been given info yet, but he promised to follow through. I sent him this followup email a he requested:
Thank you for taking the time to reach out to me today. I genuinely appreciate the attention you’re giving to this question.

I have attached a PDF of the Andrews vs. McCraw Opinion by Mark Pittman, US District Judge. The one I have is downloaded from the net, so please do the due diligence to make sure I’ve actually found the latest proper revision. It would be bad for me to suggest something, and then y’all to make a decision on this document if there is a later revision.

I’m no lawyer, so my interpretation may be way off. I’ve highlighted a few key passages in here that form the basis of the opinion that I presented to you today on the phone.
  • On page 1 of the document, Pittman starts by providing a background – providing a basis for his opinion. Part of this background (highlighted on page 3) discusses how 18-20 year olds are prohibited with or without a license.
  • On page 13, he opens a discussion on the nation’s history of gun regulation. Within this section, on the bottom of page 13, he discusses how we are a shall-issue state. He closes this paragraph on page 14 by saying that a ‘shall issue regime cannot allow a state to prohibit a class of persons from exercising their Second Amendment right solely based on their age.
  • On page 19, he mentions, “Thus, the Court concludes Texas failed to produce sufficient historical analogs from the Founding Era and the Reconstruction Era to support its statutory prohibition. The Court therefore enjoins the Texas laws to the extent they prohibit law-abiding 18-to-20-year-olds from applying for a license to carry a handgun.
  • Later on page 19, he opens the section on why he is issuing a temporary stay on his ruling. On page 20, he explains there are four reasons to do so. Reasons 2, 3, and 4 are referenced again lower on page 20 as ‘weighing heavily in favor of granting the injunction’. The justification for how they weigh heavy is that, “Texas also has an interest in the full adjudication of this issue before it issues potentially invalid licenses to carry a handgun.” This clearly indicates that if and when his ruling is finally finished with the appeals process, it will have a direct impact on the licensing program.
  • And finally, on page 22 he issues his order, stating that, “To the extent that Texas’s statutory scheme, TEX. PENAL CODE § 46.02(a) and TEX. GOV’T CODE §§ 411.172(a)(2), (g), (h), (i), prohibits law-abiding 18-to-20-year-olds from carrying handguns for self-defense outside the home based solely on their age, this statutory scheme violates the Second Amendment, as incorporated against the States via the Fourteenth Amendment.” In this order, he is referencing two codes: PC 46.02 and GC 411.172. I do agree that the PC 46.02 references unlicensed carry, but GC 411.172(a)(s) is a clear reference to the age requirements for a license to carry.
I do welcome your thoughts on this after you discuss this with your colleagues in the RSD. I am available if you have any questions, and I look forward to hearing the ultimate result of this discussion.
A week later, I got this in the mail from him:
Our legal team has been working with the AG office and we are waiting on our legal team to post an official response to our handgun licensing webpage. Hopefully that’ll be within a few days. Here’s a link to where it’ll be posted..

Program News | Department of Public Safety (texas.gov)

Feel free to reach back out if you don’t see anything posted by the end of next week.
And today I received this!
A response has been added to our website - Eligibility FAQs | Department of Public Safety (texas.gov) . It is question 9 of the FAQ’s.

9. Can an individual who is between the age of 18 to 20 years old apply for a license?
A federal district court has ruled the Department can no longer apply the License to Carry statutory eligibility criteria that prohibit otherwise eligible 18-to-20 year-olds from obtaining the license. Firearms Policy Coalition, Inc. et. al., v. Steven McCraw, et. al., No. 4:21-cv-1245-P. The Department will therefore no longer deny applications solely on the basis that the applicants are 18-to-20 years old.
Thank you to Mr. Schmidt at the DPS RSD for following though with my query!

Instructors, it seems we can now have 18+ year old students in our classes.

:thewave
Last edited by Vol Texan on Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#2

Post by Tex1961 »

You would think RSD would send out memos to instructors. Between this and apparently students are now allowed to use red dots, we don’t know what’s correct anymore. Ridiculous.
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#3

Post by RoyGBiv »

Did the stay expire?

If the judges ruling is overturned, there will be 18-20 year olds with invalid licenses.No?

While I'm in favor of the ruling, it would seem to me that the State should wait for a final adjudication before issuing those licenses.

Kudos to @Vol Texan for effecting change!
And kudos to DPS for their honest, as usual, efforts as well.
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#4

Post by Vol Texan »

RoyGBiv wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:26 pm Did the stay expire?

If the judges ruling is overturned, there will be 18-20 year olds with invalid licenses.No?

While I'm in favor of the ruling, it would seem to me that the State should wait for a final adjudication before issuing those licenses.

Kudos to @Vol Texan for effecting change!
And kudos to DPS for their honest, as usual, efforts as well.
Thank you sir.

Texas dropped their appeal, thereby ending the process.
https://abc13.com/texas-gun-laws-open-carry-who-can-a-in-public-18-year-olds-hand-guns/12601780/
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

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Post by puma guy »

:thumbs2:
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#6

Post by PriestTheRunner »

Tex1961 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:01 pmsnip... and apparently students are now allowed to use red dots, ...
Did I miss something with the Red Dots? Is there a thread on that?

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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#7

Post by Tex1961 »

PriestTheRunner wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:18 pm
Tex1961 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:01 pmsnip... and apparently students are now allowed to use red dots, ...
Did I miss something with the Red Dots? Is there a thread on that?
Yeah, I can't remember which thread, but someone who got back from the first responder course said that the instructors told then that red dots are now allowed. I did just get off the phone with RSS and they would not tell me for sure but did elude to the fact that an email was sent out about the 18-20 year olds.. Also they said that if it was on the website that is what we are to follow.. And per the link a few posts above under the FAQ's it's plain as day...
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

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Post by Paladin »

Good info! Thanks ALL!!! :cheers2:
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#9

Post by RoyGBiv »

Vol Texan wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:31 pm
RoyGBiv wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:26 pm Did the stay expire?

If the judges ruling is overturned, there will be 18-20 year olds with invalid licenses.No?

While I'm in favor of the ruling, it would seem to me that the State should wait for a final adjudication before issuing those licenses.

Kudos to @Vol Texan for effecting change!
And kudos to DPS for their honest, as usual, efforts as well.
Thank you sir.

Texas dropped their appeal, thereby ending the process.
https://abc13.com/texas-gun-laws-open-carry-who-can-a-in-public-18-year-olds-hand-guns/12601780/
Ah!! Excellent!

My son will be very disappointed that he missed the opportunity to take the class and apply while he was home for Christmas break. Maybe I just won't tell him ( :oops: ).... He'll turn 21 before his next visit home and I already told him I'd pay for his Arizona non-resident (he's in school there) class for his birthday. He can do the TX class next time he's home.

:txflag:
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

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Post by troglodyte »

PriestTheRunner wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:18 pm
Tex1961 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:01 pmsnip... and apparently students are now allowed to use red dots, ...
Did I miss something with the Red Dots? Is there a thread on that?
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#11

Post by Tex1961 »

PriestTheRunner wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:18 pm
Tex1961 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:01 pmsnip... and apparently students are now allowed to use red dots, ...
Did I miss something with the Red Dots? Is there a thread on that?
Just received this email reply from RSD.

Good Evening,



• Optical enhancers mounted on the pistol that has an ability to magnify or zoom the shooters field of view are not allowed. (Example: scoped sight or attachment that magnifies the target)

• Optic systems that do not provide any zoom capability but offer a sighting system within the optics are allowed. (Example: red dot or holographic).


Regards,



Texas Department of Public Safety
Regulatory Services Division
Handgun Licensing
PO Box 4087
Austin, TX 78773-0001
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#12

Post by Rafe »

Jeepers. As if the LTC qual isn't easy enough to pass with iron sights. I'd have thought they wouldn't allow RDS. Now that I think of it, that might make scoring good shooters handling .45s with an RDS much more difficult. More raged holes where more than one round might have entered. Leaving the scoring instructor with too few punches through paper.

"Sorry. The course of fire required five shots in 15 seconds. You only got three shots on the target."

"But," said Rob Leatham, "I'm certain I hit all five grouped right together!"
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

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Post by Tex1961 »

Rafe wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:34 pm Jeepers. As if the LTC qual isn't easy enough to pass with iron sights. I'd have thought they wouldn't allow RDS. Now that I think of it, that might make scoring good shooters handling .45s with an RDS much more difficult. More raged holes where more than one round might have entered. Leaving the scoring instructor with too few punches through paper.

"Sorry. The course of fire required five shots in 15 seconds. You only got three shots on the target."

"But," said Rob Leatham, "I'm certain I hit all five grouped right together!"
:biggrinjester:
LOL…
Honestly though, I can pretty much tell if a student is going to pass or fail within the first 10 shots. Most of the time I don’t even need to count the holes.
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

#14

Post by Rafe »

Tex1961 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:43 pm LOL…
Honestly though, I can pretty much tell if a student is going to pass or fail within the first 10 shots. Most of the time I don’t even need to count the holes.
Leatham wrote me back and said he'll take the RDS thing as a challenge. He's going to use his USPSA .45 ACP double-stack and go for completion of the CoF with only one hole no bigger than a half-dollar. ;-)

But seriously, as an afterthought, I think the RDS option could seriously help encourage some seniors and possibly some folks with conditions like mild Parkinson's or MS. If you're used to the red dot, managing/timing the wobble can be much more accurate to handle than with irons.
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Re: Official Answer: 18-year olds CAN get an LTC in Texas

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Post by PriestTheRunner »

troglodyte wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:54 pm Snip
Thanks a ton!
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