FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

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apostate
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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#31

Post by apostate » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:59 am

Middle Age Russ wrote:I have a multitude of questions -- not about hardware used or tactics, but about the things that ultimately lead one human being to prey on others.
America doesn't have a "gun problem" but rather a cultural problem. Violence as a form of expression has become normalized. Look at the violent anti-Trump and pro-fascist protests. Look at the manner in which Philadelphia expressed its joy over the SB win. Look at "thug life" and other crap that is not only tolerated, but celebrated in the name of multiculturalism.
Middle Age Russ wrote:May God grant his peace and understanding to all affected by this and other such seemingly-senseless violent crimes.
Amen
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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#32

Post by flechero » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:06 am

I agree with the cultural problems, and that’s obviously much more difficult to address.

Why can’t Republicans introduce a bill that would fund the salaries of armed officers in every school in America. The cost of this should be minimal compared to the impact of the tax cuts recently passed. It is time for action it is time for conservatives to step up and actually put forth something to help protect our children.

That would defeat the arguments from most of the left and still provide an extra measure of security and safety of children… This would truly be for the children and would not push any “conservative “agendas of allowing teachers or civilians armed in the schools.

It won’t prevent all of the tragedies and all of the shootings but it would certainly help to minimize the number of incidents and the carnage that takes place at an incident.

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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#33

Post by carlson1 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:33 am

You do not see this happen in private schools. My personal opinion is the federal government doesn’t need to even be involved. This is a ISD problem. Hire armed security, allow your LTC holders to carry, and control who comes in and out of the school.
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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#34

Post by WTR » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:50 am

I don't think we need government involvement either. While even one student death is tragic, since 2012 there has been 239 school shootings out of approx. 128,000 schools, There has benn 438 injuries out of which 138 were fatal. This out of approx. 51 million students.


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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#35

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:58 am

flechero wrote:I agree with the cultural problems, and that’s obviously much more difficult to address.

Why can’t Republicans introduce a bill that would fund the salaries of armed officers in every school in America. The cost of this should be minimal compared to the impact of the tax cuts recently passed. It is time for action it is time for conservatives to step up and actually put forth something to help protect our children.

That would defeat the arguments from most of the left and still provide an extra measure of security and safety of children… This would truly be for the children and would not push any “conservative “agendas of allowing teachers or civilians armed in the schools.

It won’t prevent all of the tragedies and all of the shootings but it would certainly help to minimize the number of incidents and the carnage that takes place at an incident.
There were two armed Sheriffs deputies at this school in Florida. It's going to take a lot more than 1 or 2 people. Offer a salary supplement to teachers who get certified as part of a security detail. That's a better option, IMHO.
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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#36

Post by philip964 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:06 am

It is very difficult in America to become famous by creating something, it is very easy in America to become famous by destroying something.

When I was little, I asked my mom why a little neighbor boy who had 7 sisters and brothers was always getting in trouble. My mom said, he wanted attention from his mom, he learned he could get it, not by being good, but by being bad.

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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#37

Post by oljames3 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:18 am

WTR wrote:I don't think we need government involvement either. While even one student death is tragic, since 2012 there has been 239 school shootings out of approx. 128,000 schools, There has benn 438 injuries out of which 138 were fatal. This out of approx. 51 million students.
School districts in Texas can allow staff having an LTC to carry in the buildings. In addition, the Texas legislature directed the Texas Department of Public Safety to create a certification course in accordance with Texas Government Code §411.1901 to teach employees of a school district or open-enrollment charter school about responsibilities related to school safety. DPS has trained and certified several Texas instructors to present this course.

I took the course at KR Training in December, 2017, and have my certificate. In addition to the other things I learned in the 18 hour course, I have shown I can achieve over 90% on the Texas LTC course of fire, pass the DPS Shooting Under Duress exercise, and pass the shooting course for a major Texas city police department.

This training seems applicable to businesses and churches, as well as school districts.

Karl Rehn is presenting the class again March 12-13 in Conroe, Texas. https://www.saddleriverrange.com/traini ... -training/
In 2013, the Texas Legislature passed SB 1857, entitled “The Texas School Safety Training Act.” This bill established a process by which license to carry (LTC) instructors can provide a state certified training program for school districts and school employees who wish to have employees with LTCs carry handguns on campus.

In 2017, DPS began offering an instructor certification course to a limited number of License To Carry instructors. KR Training has 3 instructors certified to offer the School Safety course: Karl Rehn, Paul Martin and Tina Maldonado.

In rural Texas counties, law enforcement response times can be as much as 30 minutes or longer. And that’s for the first law enforcement officer to arrive on scene. For schools in remote parts of the state, the teachers, administrators and students are the first responders for their school. They will have to fend for themselves, providing their own security and first aid until help arrives.
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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#38

Post by flechero » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:26 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
flechero wrote:I agree with the cultural problems, and that’s obviously much more difficult to address.

Why can’t Republicans introduce a bill that would fund the salaries of armed officers in every school in America. The cost of this should be minimal compared to the impact of the tax cuts recently passed. It is time for action it is time for conservatives to step up and actually put forth something to help protect our children.

That would defeat the arguments from most of the left and still provide an extra measure of security and safety of children… This would truly be for the children and would not push any “conservative “agendas of allowing teachers or civilians armed in the schools.

It won’t prevent all of the tragedies and all of the shootings but it would certainly help to minimize the number of incidents and the carnage that takes place at an incident.
There were two armed Sheriffs deputies at this school in Florida. It's going to take a lot more than 1 or 2 people. Offer a salary supplement to teachers who get certified as part of a security detail. That's a better option, IMHO.
Seems to be some conflicting reports. Either way, I agree with your point (although a harder sell to those that don't want "civilians" armed in schools) and conceded up front that it wouldn't stop them all. My larger point is that most of the time, there isn't anyone present with a gun and training. And if we as conservatives put forth something that will actually help, it will as a byproduct, take some pressure off the idiotic legislation to take away the rights of those that are not criminal.

I'm really tired of being on the political defensive when we all know that there are options that can help, and not take away the rights of the law abiding.


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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#39

Post by flechero » Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:37 am

oljames3 wrote: I took the course at KR Training in December, 2017, and have my certificate. In addition to the other things I learned in the 18 hour course, I have shown I can achieve over 90% on the Texas LTC course of fire, pass the DPS Shooting Under Duress exercise, and pass the shooting course for a major Texas city police department.

This training seems applicable to businesses and churches, as well as school districts.

Karl Rehn is presenting the class again March 12-13 in Conroe, Texas. https://www.saddleriverrange.com/traini ... -training/
In 2013, the Texas Legislature passed SB 1857, entitled “The Texas School Safety Training Act.” This bill established a process by which license to carry (LTC) instructors can provide a state certified training program for school districts and school employees who wish to have employees with LTCs carry handguns on campus.

In 2017, DPS began offering an instructor certification course to a limited number of License To Carry instructors. KR Training has 3 instructors certified to offer the School Safety course: Karl Rehn, Paul Martin and Tina Maldonado.

That looks like a great program... and having trained at KR before, I bet it is everything it's billed to be!


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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#40

Post by K.Mooneyham » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:18 pm

The vast majority of those on this forum know that no gun control (gun bans) will fix this on-going problem. And while the details of the following quote aren't important, the sentiment expressed is what matters.
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”

― Jeff Cooper, Art of the Rifle


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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#41

Post by MechAg94 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:58 pm

From what I have heard about most of those mass shooters, they generally stop as soon as they meet armed resistance (or unarmed sometimes). Many times one armed person firing back in enough. They just need to be in the right place to do it. How many armed people you need to insure someone is there when needed is an open question.

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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#42

Post by Beiruty » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:15 pm

This guy should start his treatment by roasting his trigger finger at 700F
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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#43

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:22 pm

MechAg94 wrote:From what I have heard about most of those mass shooters, they generally stop as soon as they meet armed resistance (or unarmed sometimes). Many times one armed person firing back in enough. They just need to be in the right place to do it. How many armed people you need to insure someone is there when needed is an open question.
My kids attend Seven Lakes High School in Katy, which is a very physically large school. Thinking about that location, I would say that 5 or so security personnel, properly positioned, could get in range of a shooter within a couple minutes of the first shots being fired. In addition to a stipend / supplement for willing teachers, maybe also allow parents to get certified and volunteer their time. The elementary schools in my area have something called DOGS (Dads Of Great Students), where dad's volunteer to help with school drop off, and other tasks. And we can easily muster more than 5 volunteers at a time for an elementary school which has a fraction of the students / parents compared to a high school.

Now if you are asking about how many would be needed to insure that no shooter ever gets even one shot off? Well that would be a lot more. But any progress in the direction of fewer casualties is good, IMHO.
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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#44

Post by Beiruty » Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:39 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
MechAg94 wrote:From what I have heard about most of those mass shooters, they generally stop as soon as they meet armed resistance (or unarmed sometimes). Many times one armed person firing back in enough. They just need to be in the right place to do it. How many armed people you need to insure someone is there when needed is an open question.
My kids attend Seven Lakes High School in Katy, which is a very physically large school. Thinking about that location, I would say that 5 or so security personnel, properly positioned, could get in range of a shooter within a couple minutes of the first shots being fired. In addition to a stipend / supplement for willing teachers, maybe also allow parents to get certified and volunteer their time. The elementary schools in my area have something called DOGS (Dads Of Great Students), where dad's volunteer to help with school drop off, and other tasks. And we can easily muster more than 5 volunteers at a time for an elementary school which has a fraction of the students / parents compared to a high school.

Now if you are asking about how many would be needed to insure that no shooter ever gets even one shot off? Well that would be a lot more. But any progress in the direction of fewer casualties is good, IMHO.
I volunteered for Dads Of Great Students. You would need to pass a background check, but no talk of any defense weapons whatsoever. Mostly it was observe, high five kids and do some menial tasks
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Re: FL: Active shooter at high school in South Florida

#45

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:12 pm

oljames3 wrote:I took the course at KR Training in December, 2017, and have my certificate. In addition to the other things I learned in the 18 hour course, I have shown I can achieve over 90% on the Texas LTC course of fire, pass the DPS Shooting Under Duress exercise, and pass the shooting course for a major Texas city police department.

This training seems applicable to businesses and churches, as well as school districts.

Karl Rehn is presenting the class again March 12-13 in Conroe, Texas. https://www.saddleriverrange.com/traini ... -training/
I'm confused about this class. I looked at the class listing and it states that it involves drawing from a holster, using a concealment garment, shooting from cover, and a 50 rd. shooting under duress segment. None of these are in the official DPS SSC course and the Shooting Under Duress segment is 120 rds, not 50. DPS expressly prohibits deviating from the specified proficiency drills as noted in the following statement, "The course of fire must be current, as provided by the Department of Public Safety. No alteration of the course of fire is allowed."

Did the course you attended follow the format set out in Karl's current course description?

Chas.
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