IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

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WTR
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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#31

Post by WTR » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:35 am

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:17 am
WTR wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:03 pm
There are also reports that people were shouting that the deceased was Security. I think we have a tragic mistake made by an Officer who has never learned to ID your target before pulling the trigger.
I read that also and my first thought was of how people screaming "He is a security guard" may have confused the cop. Maybe the cop thought the guy on the ground was the security guard and the guy with his knee on him was about to shoot the security guard. Using a non descriptor word like "He" can cause a serious misunderstanding in a situation like that. The cop may have thought he needed to act fast to save the security guards life.
Apparently “ he” was wearing a shirt that read SECURITY. Not to confusing if you take the proper amount of time to access the situation.

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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#32

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:46 am

WTR wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:35 am
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:17 am
WTR wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:03 pm
There are also reports that people were shouting that the deceased was Security. I think we have a tragic mistake made by an Officer who has never learned to ID your target before pulling the trigger.
I read that also and my first thought was of how people screaming "He is a security guard" may have confused the cop. Maybe the cop thought the guy on the ground was the security guard and the guy with his knee on him was about to shoot the security guard. Using a non descriptor word like "He" can cause a serious misunderstanding in a situation like that. The cop may have thought he needed to act fast to save the security guards life.
Apparently “ he” was wearing a shirt that read SECURITY. Not to confusing if you take the proper amount of time to access the situation.
That would be easy to not see. Especially from the side. If the cop thought the guy on bottom was the "he" they were screaming about, he may not have noticed the word on the shirt.

I am not saying the cop was right or wrong. My point is that all the Monday morning quarter backing we do really means very little. The majority of us have never been in any situation even close to one like that.

Yeah, it sux but we all better be very aware that if the police show up and we have a firearm out and on somebody, we might just get shot.
In my home, one is allowed to spit on the floor in any situation where they are forced to say the word, Obama.
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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#33

Post by Gator Guy » Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:17 pm

Oldgringo wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:17 pm
Gator Guy wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:14 am
Oldgringo wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:07 am
There is always the civil suit lurking in the background.
Not for the killer. Maybe for innocent taxpayers but not for the killer.
Nope! The SG's family is going to sue the city, the shooter and everybody standing around making movies with their smartphones. Wouldn't yours?
When was the last time a police officer who wasn't convicted of a crime had to pay a wrongful death civil settlement out of pocket? It's the innocent taxpayers, including the family and friends of the victim, who always seem to get stuck with the bill.
"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned."


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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#34

Post by priusron » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:20 pm

MaduroBU wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:43 pm
I was taught that the only reason for a CHL to draw his or her weapon is to fire it immediately.
This is pretty poor teaching. There are provisions in the law to show your weapon as a deterrent (forgive me if I am wording it wrong). There are also reasons to draw your weapon and keep it at low ready. I am disabled. I was getting fuel and this car with a punk blocked me in and he began cursing at me and threatening me with harm. When he started to get out of his vehicle, I drew my weapon and kept it at low ready until he got back into his vehicle and left. If he had attacked me, there is no way anyone could have drawn and fired. The only way to protect myself would to have my weapon already upholstered, which I did, I did not point it at him. When the police arrived I informed them of what took place. They had no problems with my actions. You need to rethink your teaching.

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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#35

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:56 pm

priusron states it like I believe. There are times when one might draw and not fire their weapon. Personally, I really have no desire to go through the legal hassle of a shoot if I can avoid it.
In my home, one is allowed to spit on the floor in any situation where they are forced to say the word, Obama.
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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#36

Post by Abraham » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:09 pm

"I was taught that the only reason for a CHL to draw his or her weapon is to fire it immediately"

I hope that wasn't taught, but instead is some sort of "old wives tales" you heard that you mis-remember and only 'think' it was 'taught'.

Fire it immediately?

Wow!


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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#37

Post by WTR » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:52 pm

I don’t understand the discussion about a run of the mill CHL holder. This man was an armed Security Guard paid to keep the bar peaceful. He was doing his job!

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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#38

Post by Oldgringo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:02 am

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:56 pm
priusron states it like I believe. There are times when one might draw and not fire their weapon. Personally, I really have no desire to go through the legal hassle of a shoot if I can avoid it.
Words of wisdom indeed!


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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#39

Post by MaduroBU » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:50 am

I think that you made the worst possible decision and got lucky. I'm glad that it worked out that way for you, but most of the scenarios don't end that well. Few if any de-escalation tactics begin with "Visibly threaten the other party's life." If there isn't an immediate need to fire your weapon, I strongly believe in leaving it holstered and hopefully invisible.

If you presume that the cops (and jury and bystanders et c) will immediately understand that you're the defender, acting within your rights to protect yourself, you'll have a very tough time if that presumption fails. That's exactly what this thread is about.


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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#40

Post by philip964 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:57 pm



White officer.

Officer who fired was late to scene. Other officers screamed “he’s one of us”.

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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#41

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:04 pm

MaduroBU wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:50 am
I think that you made the worst possible decision and got lucky. I'm glad that it worked out that way for you, but most of the scenarios don't end that well. Few if any de-escalation tactics begin with "Visibly threaten the other party's life." If there isn't an immediate need to fire your weapon, I strongly believe in leaving it holstered and hopefully invisible.
You are entitled to your opinion, but this one is certainly outside of the mainstream of self-defense teaching. This is especially true with a potential victim that is disabled.

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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#42

Post by mojo84 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:29 pm

MaduroBU wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:50 am
I think that you made the worst possible decision and got lucky. I'm glad that it worked out that way for you, but most of the scenarios don't end that well. Few if any de-escalation tactics begin with "Visibly threaten the other party's life." If there isn't an immediate need to fire your weapon, I strongly believe in leaving it holstered and hopefully invisible.

I have been in two situations when me drawing my weapon was sufficient to de-escalate a situation without having to shoot. Thinking that one has to shoot if they pull their gun or should only pull their gun at the vary last second and then shoot is not wise. Most all the time it is better to end a situation without shooting if possible.


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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#43

Post by MaduroBU » Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:42 pm

mojo84 wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:29 pm
Most all the time it is better to end a situation without shooting if possible.
I completely agree with this sentiment. My argument is that drawing a weapon reduces the likelihood of talking the situation out (or simply leaving it) versus being forced into a violent conclusion that might otherwise have been avoided. I think that this is particularly true in situations wherein the situation starts not as a criminal ambush but as a verbal altercation.


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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#44

Post by Rob72 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:15 pm

Maxwell wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:49 pm
Noggin wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:28 pm
I am surprised nobody has pointed out that had the security guard shot the BG rather than tried to detain him he could then have holstered or laid down his weapon before LEO appeared, in which case he would probably still be alive. Therefore if the situation does permit the use of lethal force maybe you should not hesitate.


So the "Kill 'em all and let God sort it out" mentality?
Noggin wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:28 pm
We LTCs are not LEOs it is not our function to enforce the law or to arrest people, therefore we are potentially a greater threat to the lives of BGs than LEOs are.


Wow! just... Wow!
Noggin is correct. LTC's do not have the "duty to arrest", and if legally producing a weapon are in fear for their lives/the lives of the persons under felonious assault, ergo, yes, an LTC shoots to bring about cessation of hostility. If the aggressor requires physical restraint, post-shooting, the shooting action was inadequate to the demands of the situation.

This is not a, "moral compass," question, it is about acting responsibly within the law. My personal take is that the SG had had enough indoctrination into the concept of "arrest" that he thought that was appropriate to the situation. Not being a sworn LEO, the standards, and risks, are significantly different.

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Re: IL:Security Guard holding bar shooter on ground shot and killed by police by accident

#45

Post by Maxwell » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:41 am

I understand the law and I will not hesitate to defend myself and my loved ones with the full force necessary to stop an attack. Also, there is always a moral question involved with the use of lethal force and you'd better have it fully answered before carrying! So, while I agree to a point you should both reread the article. The Guard was (we assume since he was carrying) commissioned. This is different than an LTC. Second he was not sworn in as a LEO but he was heading into the police force which would have given him a completely different outlook than you or I in a gun fight in a parking lot, which BTW they were outside and the shooting so the implication was that shooting had probably stopped. Also, I doubt Chicago has the same laws regarding this that we do.

I stand by my statement, what was posted above sounds to me very much like the bumper sticker I quoted. I carry a gun for defense only. I am not a security guard nor am I a LEO but until I or my loved ones are directly in danger I will use lethal force.

OK, I'm off of my soapbox. These are just my opinions and thoughts on the matter, yours may differ.

:tiphat:

Max
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