Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

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Ruark
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#106

Post by Ruark » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:54 am

There are very specific markers present at an autopsy when a person dies from asphyxiation, such as increase blood CO2, eye vascularity, etc. The county coroner found none of these. Floyd died from coronary failure, aggravated by the stress of being restrained and fentanyl intoxication. The "celebrity doctor" hired by the family ignored these findings and simply watched the video, and didn't even mention his toxicology. From what I can tell, this whole thing is yet another media-generated farce, just like Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, et. al. And now our cities are burning, while truth, as usual, fades into oblivion. What a freaking mess.
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Killadocg23
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#107

Post by Killadocg23 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:51 am

So what I am gathering is the officer that had his knee on this gentlemens neck had nothing to do with his death is what some of you are saying? Quick question. If the officer didnt have his knee on his neck would you think Mr George would have died that day and still be alive to this day during that incident? Or he still would have died regardless?


Ruark
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#108

Post by Ruark » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:31 pm

Killadocg23 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:51 am
So what I am gathering is the officer that had his knee on this gentlemens neck had nothing to do with his death is what some of you are saying? Quick question. If the officer didnt have his knee on his neck would you think Mr George would have died that day and still be alive to this day during that incident? Or he still would have died regardless?
I don't know, I'm not a coroner. But as I said, there are specific markers for asphyxiation that show up in an autopsy, and Floyd didn't have any. He was also intoxicated with fentanyl and showed recent methamphetamine use. Fentanyl - meth combinations are responsible for about half of the overdose deaths in this county. Plus, he had multiple heart conditions. I'm not saying this is proof of anything, pro or con, I'm just stating some pertinent facts, not that anybody cares. Any news announcer that spoke of this information would be fired and ostracized.
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philip964
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#109

Post by philip964 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:50 pm

Ruark wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:31 pm
Killadocg23 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:51 am
So what I am gathering is the officer that had his knee on this gentlemens neck had nothing to do with his death is what some of you are saying? Quick question. If the officer didnt have his knee on his neck would you think Mr George would have died that day and still be alive to this day during that incident? Or he still would have died regardless?
I don't know, I'm not a coroner. But as I said, there are specific markers for asphyxiation that show up in an autopsy, and Floyd didn't have any. He was also intoxicated with fentanyl and showed recent methamphetamine use. Fentanyl - meth combinations are responsible for about half of the overdose deaths in this county. Plus, he had multiple heart conditions. I'm not saying this is proof of anything, pro or con, I'm just stating some pertinent facts, not that anybody cares. Any news announcer that spoke of this information would be fired and ostracized.
Near as I can tell from what you are saying is that there are specific biological markers that show up when some one dies from lack of oxygen that are different than what happens when someone's heart stops. In this case no lack of oxygen markers showed up.

A large man in his 50's with drugs in his system who gets in a fight with the police and struggles a lot can just die from an undetected heart problem. Pressure on his chest and neck from his own weight and the weight of officers pressing on him could make the situation more life threatening.

If this is the case. Why is it murder? Death from natural causes and drugs.


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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#110

Post by Mike S » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:52 pm

To be clear, I'm not saying the officer didn't contribute to his cardiac arrest. What I am saying is there's a lot more contributing factors than just the officer holding him down, & that to me I don't see a strangulation/pressure on his neck that would cause asphyxiation.

Yes, I've watched a couple videos of the incident, & yes it was very disturbing watching a man die while the crowd was pleading for (1) Mr Floyd to comply with the police, & (2) for the police to 'see' that Mr Floyd had lost consciousness & was bleeding from the nose. We literally saw a fellow human pass from this life on that video, and we felt the anguish & helplessness of the crowd to intervene. Yes, that affected me too, & I've seen some carnage in my life.

To your questions:
1. I don't know if he would still be alive. Mr Floyd was complaining of difficulty breathing before he was removed from the police car, so he may have already been going into cardiac arrest & feeling pressure in his chest, or perhaps a 'panic attack' / claustrophobia. (I believe the reason cited in the probably cause affidavit for removing Mr Floyd from the police car was that the officers believed he was in health crisis, & had called for EMS). The pre-existing health conditions + fentanyl/meth MAY have been factors, but in the end I'd be speculating. I don't know if the position he was held in was a contributing factor to the cardiac arrest, or positional asphyxia, but it COULD have. Knee's to the neck HAVE been cited as increasing the risk of positional asphyxia, BUT I don't know if much pressure was actually applied to Mr Floyd's neck (he was still talking with the officers and crowd up until the point he lost consciousness, & when the airway is occluded a person usually can't speak, at least not clearly. There are also moments in the video where daylight can be seen between the officer's knee & Mr Floyds neck, so I don't think (but I don't KNOW) that the pressure was constant nor enough to occlude his airway or carotid artery.

2. Would he have still died regardless? Again, I don't know. But with pre-existing conditions + fentanyl/meth, I'd imagine he might not have been able to be resuscitated. Had the officers placed Mr Floyd in a different position, or lots of other factors, there MAY have been a different outcome.
Last edited by Mike S on Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#111

Post by srothstein » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:08 pm

Killadocg23 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:51 am
So what I am gathering is the officer that had his knee on this gentlemens neck had nothing to do with his death is what some of you are saying? Quick question. If the officer didnt have his knee on his neck would you think Mr George would have died that day and still be alive to this day during that incident? Or he still would have died regardless?
I believe that if Off. Chauvin had never been involved in the scene at all, and the other three officers had managed to subdue and restrain Mr. Floyd (with no one on his neck), he would be just as dead as in what actually did happen. What Mike S reported as positional asphyxiation is well known to police officers, as is a cause of death called excited delirium. My training would have separated those out a little more than I think Mike did in his post, but the end result is the same.

Excited delirium is usually caused by a combination of an overdose of drugs, excessive adrenaline from fighting with the police, and mental illness. The way it was explained to me at one autopsy was that the drugs caused the heart rate to increase. The adrenaline then also caused the heart rate to increase even further. The exertion of fighting with the police increased it even further. Eventually, the heart rate increases more than the human heart can take.

Here is an article that explains excited delirium, if anyone is interested in learning more. It is a little different than what I said, but I am not medically trained.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088378/

Based on my patrol experience, I do not believe Mr. Floyd would have survived even if the officers had started performing CPR the second he stopped struggling. I believe the worst thing the officers (as a team) did is notice he did not have a pulse and not take any action to resuscitate him immediately. I don't think it would have done any good, but it would have been more in line with their job to preserve life if they had.
Steve Rothstein


Ruark
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#112

Post by Ruark » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:33 pm

Interesting that to my knowledge, so far we haven't heard a peep from Chauvin or his attorneys.

If his attorneys are skilled enough to use the above information in getting him acquitted, heaven help us; the riots thus far will be a Sunday picnic in comparison.
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#113

Post by parabelum » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:56 pm

Potato pohtato.

From the ME who performed the initial autopsy, not Baden..

Cause of Death: “Cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression."

Manner of Death: “Homicide”


All other factors are just that, other factors. Seems to me that both ME’s actually agree more then disagree. Baden just has a juicier TMZesque write up.

Read below from Hennepin Co ME:
657b9939bb4e46cea274d10f81c662cc.pdf
(155.65 KiB) Downloaded 36 times
Credendo Vides


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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#114

Post by parabelum » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:00 pm

Ruark wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:54 am
There are very specific markers present at an autopsy when a person dies from asphyxiation, such as increase blood CO2, eye vascularity, etc. The county coroner found none of these. Floyd died from coronary failure, aggravated by the stress of being restrained and fentanyl intoxication. The "celebrity doctor" hired by the family ignored these findings and simply watched the video, and didn't even mention his toxicology. From what I can tell, this whole thing is yet another media-generated farce, just like Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, et. al. And now our cities are burning, while truth, as usual, fades into oblivion. What a freaking mess.
Incorrect Sir. Read the actual autopsy report from the county coroner above.
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#115

Post by Grayling813 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:16 pm

Concerning biological markers for asphyxiation...are they the same markers if someone is not choked, ie cutting off oxygen as opposed to cutting off blood flow to the brain via compression of the carotid arteries?
"If safety requires us to indefinitely forfeit the most valuable parts of our lives, what exactly are we trying to save?"
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#116

Post by parabelum » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:27 pm

Grayling813 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:16 pm
Concerning biological markers for asphyxiation...are they the same markers if someone is not choked, ie cutting off oxygen as opposed to cutting off blood flow to the brain via compression of the carotid arteries?
I think the biological marker studies are evolving still but I’d guess that Tau cytoskeletal protein could be used to assess, but again, biological markers are at infancy still and I’d be surprised if they would be admitted into court. But I ain’t no MD or an attorney.
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#117

Post by Ruark » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:09 pm

parabelum wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:00 pm
Ruark wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:54 am
There are very specific markers present at an autopsy when a person dies from asphyxiation, such as increase blood CO2, eye vascularity, etc. The county coroner found none of these. Floyd died from coronary failure, aggravated by the stress of being restrained and fentanyl intoxication. The "celebrity doctor" hired by the family ignored these findings and simply watched the video, and didn't even mention his toxicology. From what I can tell, this whole thing is yet another media-generated farce, just like Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, et. al. And now our cities are burning, while truth, as usual, fades into oblivion. What a freaking mess.
Incorrect Sir. Read the actual autopsy report from the county coroner above.
Sorry, I don't see anything in that report that negates what I wrote. FWIW, the preliminary report, as is widely known, said "no physical evidence of strangulation or asphyxiation."
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#118

Post by parabelum » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:27 pm

Ruark wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:09 pm
parabelum wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:00 pm
Ruark wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:54 am
There are very specific markers present at an autopsy when a person dies from asphyxiation, such as increase blood CO2, eye vascularity, etc. The county coroner found none of these. Floyd died from coronary failure, aggravated by the stress of being restrained and fentanyl intoxication. The "celebrity doctor" hired by the family ignored these findings and simply watched the video, and didn't even mention his toxicology. From what I can tell, this whole thing is yet another media-generated farce, just like Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, et. al. And now our cities are burning, while truth, as usual, fades into oblivion. What a freaking mess.
Incorrect Sir. Read the actual autopsy report from the county coroner above.
Sorry, I don't see anything in that report that negates what I wrote. FWIW, the preliminary report, as is widely known, said "no physical evidence of strangulation or asphyxiation."
Coronary failure is not really the same as cardiopulmonary arrest. Cause of death is LE subdual, restraint and neck compression (says not me but the county ME).
As far as fentanyl or meth, yep, present but ME cites those as “other significant findings” and not as cause of death.
As far as his heart issues, I bet 70%+ of folks on this very forum have the same disease and are still typing away...

Of course there’s no physical evidence of strangulation or asphyxiation. Nobody had their paws around his neck. Actually that’s even more troublesome as I believe he died very slowly and painfully.

I think if cops are gonna continue using this method, they should at least once experience (like a taser) what it feels like not to be able to expand your diaphragm while 180 pound or more individual has their knee pressing against the neck. Chill in that position for 5+ minutes then come back and tell us all about it.
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#119

Post by cheezit » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:54 pm

Killadocg23 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:51 am
So what I am gathering is the officer that had his knee on this gentlemens neck had nothing to do with his death is what some of you are saying? Quick question. If the officer didnt have his knee on his neck would you think Mr George would have died that day and still be alive to this day during that incident? Or he still would have died regardless?
If he wouldn't have handed off a fake $20, not been on meth and fentanyl would he also possibly be alive today?


Killadocg23
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Re: Man who died from knee to neck was from Texas

#120

Post by Killadocg23 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:27 pm

cheezit wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:54 pm
Killadocg23 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:51 am
So what I am gathering is the officer that had his knee on this gentlemens neck had nothing to do with his death is what some of you are saying? Quick question. If the officer didnt have his knee on his neck would you think Mr George would have died that day and still be alive to this day during that incident? Or he still would have died regardless?
If he wouldn't have handed off a fake $20, not been on meth and fentanyl would he also possibly be alive today?
Come on. That sounds like a “liberal” leftist response. I asked a legit question and thats what you come up with? There are alot of what ifs but we are talking about a man placing his knee on somebodys neck. So let me guess Mr George should have died that day because he was a meth user or used a fake 20$(we dont even know if knew the money was illegitmate). Way to shy away from the question.

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