Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Carry?

Discussions about relevant bills filed and their status.

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Hoi Polloi
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Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Carry?

#1

Post by Hoi Polloi »

Background for anyone confused or catching up:
Sen. Wentworth proposed SB354 and had a majority of the Senate who would vote for it, legalizing concealed carry in campus buildings by CHL holders. However, he could not get 2/3 of the Senate to vote to bring up the bill out of order to have it heard and so it languished. He then attached his bill to Sen. Zaffirini's higher ed finance bill (SB5) as an amendment, but it was challenged and determined to not be germane because Sen. Wentworth included an opt-out for private schools and Sen. Zaffirini's bill did not cover any private schools. Sen. Wentworth edited his bill and proposed a new amendment which removed the private school opt-out. This was determined to be germane, was voted on and accepted, so Sen. Zaffirini pulled SB5. Sen. Zaffirini then attached SB5 to Sen. Ogden's SB1581, another higher ed finance bill. Once she did so, Sen. Wentworth attached his edited bill as another amendment to SB1581. It was determined to be germane and was accepted. Sen. Ogden's SB1581 passed the Senate with Wentworth's amendment allowing concealed carry on campus.

The House now has the original higher ed finance bill (no campus carry amendments) as well as the amended Senate version and their own languishing concealed carry bills. Tension is high as we see what they do with them.

Who and where will actually be covered?
In the mean time, there's some discussion going on about how exactly the edits to Wentworth's bill to make it germane affected who is covered. Are private institutions now included (whereas before the edit they could opt-out?) Or does the language restrict it only to public schools? What about junior colleges and technical institutes? Would Van Taylor try to attach his HB1167 which allows campus carry on junior colleges and publical technical institutes to this one now? Could he? Does Wentworth's bill being attached make Van Taylor's germane to the Senate Bill that's now in the House? How do the restrictions on hospitals owned and operated by medical schools affect CHL holders?

Here's the text that passed the Senate:
Senator Wentworth wrote: Sec. 411.2031. CARRYING OF HANDGUNS BY LICENSE HOLDERS ON
CAMPUSES. (a) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Campus" means all land and buildings owned or leased by an institution of higher education.
(2) "Institution of higher education" has the meaning assigned by Section 61.003, Education Code.
(3) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035, Penal Code.
(b) Except as otherwise provided by this section, a license holder may carry a concealed handgun on or about the license holder's person while the license holder is on the campus of an institution of higher education in this state.
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), an institution of higher education in this state may not adopt any rule, regulation, or other provision prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns on the campus of the institution.
(d) An institution of higher education in this state may establish rules, regulations, or other provisions concerning the storage of handguns in dormitories that are owned or operated by the institution and located on the campus of the institution.
(e) This section does not permit a license holder to carry a concealed handgun on or about the premises of a hospital maintained or operated by an institution of higher education. In this subsection, "hospital" has the meaning assigned by Section 241.003, Health and Safety Code.
(f) This section does not permit a license holder to carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a preschool, elementary school, or secondary school that is located on the campus of an institution of higher education if the institution gives effective notice under Section 30.06, Penal Code.
There are a lot of threads going on right now about what's actually happening on the bills and who to call about it, so I'd like to provide this thread as a place for theory and discussion on who is now covered and what can be done with the remaining options in this session to get maximum coverage.
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hirundo82
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#2

Post by hirundo82 »

The pivotal part is what "institution of higher education" includes. According to Education Code §61.003:
(8) "Institution of higher education" means any public technical institute, public junior college, public senior college or university, medical or dental unit, public state college, or other agency of higher education as defined in this section.
Note that "other agency of higher education" isn't just a catch-all term--it is defined as specific institutions. I think that it would still be illegal to carry on the premises of a private college, since the exception added to the penal code only applies to "an institution of higher education":
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal
knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or
educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being
conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or
educational institution, whether the school or educational
institution is public or private, unless:
(A) pursuant to written regulations or written
authorization of the institution; or
(B) the person possesses or goes with a concealed
handgun that the person is licensed to carry under Subchapter H,
Chapter 411, Government Code, and no other weapon to which this
section applies, on the physical premises of an institution of
higher education or in a passenger transportation vehicle of the
institution;
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#3

Post by srothstein »

I agree. From the referenced definitions it would appear that nothing in the bill applies to private colleges or universities. While they have the ability to opt in, as they do under the current law, they are off limits if they just do nothing. This is something we need to work on in two years - unless the decriminalization bill passes also.

But, while I support this bill and think it is an improvement overall, I do want to point out that it answers a question that might not be answered how we want. Right now, schools is not a defined term. A school hospital (say UTHSC) may be a hospital or it may be a school and we cannot tell from the law. If you were caught carrying there right now, you could make a good argument that it was not illegal unless they posted a 30.06 sign. This bill pretty much eliminates that gray area and makes it black. To be included the way it is written, the hospital IS part of the school and carry is expressly not allowed there.

I just wanted others to think about this and see if they agree with me. It kind of comes under the heading of every silver lining has a cloud.
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#4

Post by TrueFlog »

I also agree. Because SB5 and SB1581 only pertain to public schools, Wentworth was forced to strike from his amendment all references to private schools, not just the opt-out portion.
Note how SB354 compares to SB1581, and you'll see that the phrase "or private or independent institution of higher education" was present in SB354 but not SB1581. That means that SB1581, as amended, makes no changes whatsoever to private colleges. It will still be illegal to carry on the premises of a private college, and private colleges may still adopt anti-gun policies.
SB354 wrote:A license holder may carry a concealed handgun on or about the license holder's person while the license holder is on the campus of an institution of higher education or private or independent institution of higher education in this state.
SB1581 wrote:a license holder may carry a concealed handgun on or about the license holder's person while the license holder is on the campus of an institution of higher education in this state.
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#5

Post by SC1903A3 »

Senator Wentworth wrote:
Sec. 411.2031. CARRYING OF HANDGUNS BY LICENSE HOLDERS ON
Senator Wentworth wrote:
Sec. 411.2031. CARRYING OF HANDGUNS BY LICENSE HOLDERS ON
CAMPUSES. (a) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Campus" means all land and buildings owned or leased by an institution of higher education.
(2) "Institution of higher education" has the meaning assigned by Section 61.003, Education Code.(3) "Premises" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035, Penal Code.
(b) Except as otherwise provided by this section, a license holder may carry a concealed handgun on or about the license holder's person while the license holder is on the campus of an institution of higher education in this state.
(c) Except as provided by Subsection (d), an institution of higher education in this state may not adopt any rule, regulation, or other provision prohibiting license holders from carrying handguns on the campus of the institution.
(d) An institution of higher education in this state may establish rules, regulations, or other provisions concerning the storage of handguns in dormitories that are owned or operated by the institution and located on the campus of the institution.
(e) This section does not permit a license holder to carry a concealed handgun on or about the premises of a hospital maintained or operated by an institution of higher education. In this subsection, "hospital" has the meaning assigned by Section 241.003, Health and Safety Code.
(f) This section does not permit a license holder to carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a preschool, elementary school, or secondary school that is located on the campus of an institution of higher education if the institution gives effective notice under Section 30.06, Penal Code.
hirundo82 wrote :
The pivotal part is what "institution of higher education" includes. According to Education Code §61.003:

(8) "Institution of higher education" means any public technical institute, public junior college, public senior college or university, medical or dental unit, public state college, or other agency of higher education as defined in this section.

Note that "other agency of higher education" isn't just a catch-all term--it is defined as specific institutions. I think that it would still be illegal to carry on the premises of a private college, since the exception added to the penal code only applies to "an institution of higher education":

(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally,
knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal
knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or
educational institution, any grounds or building on which an
activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being
conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or
educational institution, whether the school or educational
institution is public or private, unless:
(A) pursuant to written regulations or written
authorization of the institution; or
(B) the person possesses or goes with a concealed
handgun that the person is licensed to carry under Subchapter H,
Chapter 411, Government Code, and no other weapon to which this
section applies, on the physical premises of an institution of
higher education or in a passenger transportation vehicle of the
institution; "
Your forgetting to read this part of 61.03
(15) "Private or independent institution of higher education" includes only a private or independent college or university that is:(A) organized under the Texas Non-Profit Corporation Act (Article 1396-1.01 et seq., Vernon's Texas Civil Statutes);(B) exempt from taxation under Article VIII, Section 2, of the Texas Constitution and Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (26 U.S.C. Section 501); and(C) accredited by:(i) the Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools;(ii) the Liaison Committee on Medical Education; or(iii) the American Bar Association.
As this recognizes private institutions under 61.03 I believe it would include private universities and as Senator Wentworth's revised bill removed the opt out private universities would be forced to allow concealed carry on their campuses. By the way, I work for one of these private institutions which qualifies under this section.

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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#6

Post by BrianSW99 »

SC1903A3 wrote:
Your forgetting to read this part of 61.03
(15) "Private or independent institution of higher education" includes only a private or independent college or university that is:(A) organized under the Texas Non-Profit Corporation Act (Article 1396-1.01 et seq., Vernon's Texas Civil Statutes);(B) exempt from taxation under Article VIII, Section 2, of the Texas Constitution and Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (26 U.S.C. Section 501); and(C) accredited by:(i) the Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools;(ii) the Liaison Committee on Medical Education; or(iii) the American Bar Association.
As this recognizes private institutions under 61.03 I believe it would include private universities and as Senator Wentworth's revised bill removed the opt out private universities would be forced to allow concealed carry on their campuses. By the way, I work for one of these private institutions which qualifies under this section.
The problem is, what was passed says, (2) "Institution of higher education" has the meaning assigned by Section 61.003, Education Code.

That's a specific phrase that's defined in 61.03(8), which does not include private schools. Wentworth's amendment does not say any institution defined by 61.03 is covered.
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#7

Post by SC1903A3 »

What about the part I've put in bold which would tie into section 15?
(8) "Institution of higher education" means any public technical institute, public junior college, public senior college or university, medical or dental unit, public state college, or other agency of higher education as defined in this section.

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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#8

Post by BrianSW99 »

SC1903A3 wrote:What about the part I've put in bold which would tie into section 15?
(8) "Institution of higher education" means any public technical institute, public junior college, public senior college or university, medical or dental unit, public state college, or other agency of higher education as defined in this section.
"other agency of higher education" is also specifically defined by 61.03(6). It only adds some specific entities that are related to public institutions. It would not apply to private universities.

Brian
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#9

Post by Jasonw560 »

BrianSW99 wrote:
SC1903A3 wrote:What about the part I've put in bold which would tie into section 15?
(8) "Institution of higher education" means any public technical institute, public junior college, public senior college or university, medical or dental unit, public state college, or other agency of higher education as defined in this section.
"other agency of higher education" is also specifically defined by 61.03(6). It only adds some specific entities that are related to public institutions. It would not apply to private universities.

Brian
:iagree: To be germane :shock: to private universities, it has to read, "private or independent institution of higher education". It's very specific.

They might be finding a way, tonight, to include them.

It wouldn't be fair to leave private college upperclassmen, "non-traditional" students, staff and professors out in the cold as victims.
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#10

Post by Hoi Polloi »

srothstein wrote:But, while I support this bill and think it is an improvement overall, I do want to point out that it answers a question that might not be answered how we want. Right now, schools is not a defined term. A school hospital (say UTHSC) may be a hospital or it may be a school and we cannot tell from the law. If you were caught carrying there right now, you could make a good argument that it was not illegal unless they posted a 30.06 sign. This bill pretty much eliminates that gray area and makes it black. To be included the way it is written, the hospital IS part of the school and carry is expressly not allowed there.

I just wanted others to think about this and see if they agree with me. It kind of comes under the heading of every silver lining has a cloud.
I think it is excessively burdensome that a person would need to look up the title to a property that is open to the public and, independent of signage, know on his own if this particular property is off limits.

This also doesn't make logical sense. Hospitals aren't off limits. Universities won't be off limits. University hospitals will be a newly created statutorily off-limits location? That's gonna be hard to undo at a later date.

If they're trying to distinguish that the hospital part will be treated like other hospitals and can be subject to the 30.06 provisions, they should say that.
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#11

Post by mgood »

Hoi Polloi wrote:I think it is excessively burdensome that a person would need to look up the title to a property that is open to the public and, independent of signage, know on his own if this particular property is off limits.

This also doesn't make logical sense. Hospitals aren't off limits. Universities won't be off limits. University hospitals will be a newly created statutorily off-limits location? That's gonna be hard to undo at a later date.

If they're trying to distinguish that the hospital part will be treated like other hospitals and can be subject to the 30.06 provisions, they should say that.
I agree.
But,
I'm prepared for the possibility that what we get could be a mess that needs to be "fixed" in 2013. That's better than getting nothing.
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#12

Post by terryg »

As an employee of a private university, I was very excited at the thought that this could include private schools as well. But as I dug into it, I came to the same conclusion as hirundo82.

It seems to be specifically referencing the entities described in (8). But, like SC1903A3, I can not make since of the final reference "or
other agency of higher education as defined in this section".
... this space intentionally left blank ...

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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#13

Post by BrianSW99 »

terryg wrote:As an employee of a private university, I was very excited at the thought that this could include private schools as well. But as I dug into it, I came to the same conclusion as hirundo82.

It seems to be specifically referencing the entities described in (8). But, like SC1903A3, I can not make since of the final reference "or
other agency of higher education as defined in this section".
"other agency of higher education as defined in this section" means those entities specifically defined by 61.03 (6):
(6) "Other agency of higher education" means The University of Texas System, System Administration; Texas Western University Museum; Texas A & M University System, Administrative and General Offices; Texas Agricultural Experiment Station; Texas Agricultural Extension Service; Rodent and Predatory Animal Control Service (a part of the Texas Agricultural Extension Service); Texas Engineering Experiment Station (including the Texas Transportation Institute); Texas Engineering Extension Service; Texas Forest Service; Texas Tech University Museum; Texas State University System, System Administration; Sam Houston Memorial Museum; Panhandle-Plains Historical Museum; Cotton Research Committee of Texas; Water Resources Institute of Texas; Texas Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Laboratory; and any other unit, division, institution, or agency which shall be so designated by statute or which may be established to operate as a component part of any public senior college or university, or which may be so classified as provided in this chapter.
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#14

Post by terryg »

BrianSW99 wrote:
terryg wrote:As an employee of a private university, I was very excited at the thought that this could include private schools as well. But as I dug into it, I came to the same conclusion as hirundo82.

It seems to be specifically referencing the entities described in (8). But, like SC1903A3, I can not make since of the final reference "or
other agency of higher education as defined in this section".
"other agency of higher education as defined in this section" means those entities specifically defined by 61.03 (6):
(6) "Other agency of higher education" means The University of Texas System, System Administration; Texas Western University Museum; Texas A & M University System, Administrative and General Offices; Texas Agricultural Experiment Station; Texas Agricultural Extension Service; Rodent and Predatory Animal Control Service (a part of the Texas Agricultural Extension Service); Texas Engineering Experiment Station (including the Texas Transportation Institute); Texas Engineering Extension Service; Texas Forest Service; Texas Tech University Museum; Texas State University System, System Administration; Sam Houston Memorial Museum; Panhandle-Plains Historical Museum; Cotton Research Committee of Texas; Water Resources Institute of Texas; Texas Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Laboratory; and any other unit, division, institution, or agency which shall be so designated by statute or which may be established to operate as a component part of any public senior college or university, or which may be so classified as provided in this chapter.
Yep, I think you are right. So it now seems pretty certain to me that this bill would NOT require private university campi to allow CHL's.
Last edited by terryg on Thu May 12, 2011 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who/where is covered in the new SB version of Campus Car

#15

Post by MeMelYup »

terryg wrote:
BrianSW99 wrote:
terryg wrote:As an employee of a private university, I was very excited at the thought that this could include private schools as well. But as I dug into it, I came to the same conclusion as hirundo82.

It seems to be specifically referencing the entities described in (8). But, like SC1903A3, I can not make since of the final reference "or
other agency of higher education as defined in this section".
"other agency of higher education as defined in this section" means those entities specifically defined by 61.03 (6):
(6) "Other agency of higher education" means The University of Texas System, System Administration; Texas Western University Museum; Texas A & M University System, Administrative and General Offices; Texas Agricultural Experiment Station; Texas Agricultural Extension Service; Rodent and Predatory Animal Control Service (a part of the Texas Agricultural Extension Service); Texas Engineering Experiment Station (including the Texas Transportation Institute); Texas Engineering Extension Service; Texas Forest Service; Texas Tech University Museum; Texas State University System, System Administration; Sam Houston Memorial Museum; Panhandle-Plains Historical Museum; Cotton Research Committee of Texas; Water Resources Institute of Texas; Texas Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Laboratory; and any other unit, division, institution, or agency which shall be so designated by statute or which may be established to operate as a component part of any public senior college or university, or which may be so classified as provided in this chapter.
Yep, I think you are right. So it now seems pretty certain to me that this bill would NOT allow CC on private university campi.
Pls change allow to require, because CC would be allowed with a letter from the administration.
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