Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

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bblhd672
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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#91

Post by bblhd672 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:21 pm

nightmare69 wrote:Also it's much easier to just become a reserve LEO and then 06/07 signs won't apply to you. I wouldn't go as far as carrying a concealed rifle in a briefcase unless I was Jason Bourne. It's comical really.
It's comical until a deranged person walks into a location where concealed and open carry of a handgun is prohibited. I'm sure that people who have been in those situations do not find the humor in it. Former Texas state Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp who was in the Luby's in Killeen in 1991 probably would disagree with your "comical" assessment.

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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#92

Post by Jusme » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:22 pm

nightmare69 wrote:Also it's much easier to just become a reserve LEO and then 06/07 signs won't apply to you. I wouldn't go as far as carrying a concealed rifle in a briefcase unless I was Jason Bourne. It's comical really.


There are those on the left, who feel the same way about those of us who carry handguns. To each their own, if I had to make a choice, a folded rifle, in a case or backpack, would not be my first choice for self defense. The subject at hand, is when you would be prohibited from carrying a handgun, and it would be impractical, not to mention overly attention provoking to carry a normal long gun, why not carry a folded rifle in a case? I fully understand that you would not likely be able to get the drop on someone who suddenly appeared with a drawn gun, but every scenario is different, and with a few seconds lead time, one could deploy it fairly rapidly. JMHO
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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#93

Post by rotor » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:23 pm

Abraham wrote:Thinking about the "rifle/30.06 loophole" I also wonder what would happen if you had to defend yourself against a criminal/terrorist say in a hospital.

If you have to shoot in self defense are you going to be prosecuted for using a firearm in a 30.06 location?
You used a rifle, right, I get it, but they posted 30.06 to keep firearms at bay. Now, I can see some overzealous anti-gun prosecutor going for the jugular.

Unlikely?

Hhhhmmmmm, maybe or not...
I really don't understand your logic here. 30.06 only applies to concealed handguns carried by a LTC holder. If they want to keep rifles out they would need a "No Firearms" sign. A "No Firearms" sign would cover rifles but unless they had a 30.06/30.07 would not cover handguns carried by a LTC holder. It is not a rifle loophole. They can easily post to keep rifles out as well. The fact that they don't post "No Firearms" means that you can carry a rifle in concealed or open and in the open case may be asked to leave.

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ScottDLS
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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#94

Post by ScottDLS » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:24 pm

Abraham wrote:rotor,

"Now if the sign said no firearms than trespass laws would apply."

Are you sure?

I'm thinking such signs can't be enforced by law, but it's an interesting point.
The sign would have to have the 30.06 language to ban handguns AND language indicating that entry was forbidden to persons carrying firearms, for 30.05 to potentially apply (to long guns)
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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#95

Post by rotor » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:30 pm

Abraham wrote:rotor,

"Now if the sign said no firearms than trespass laws would apply."

Are you sure?

I'm thinking such signs can't be enforced by law, but it's an interesting point.
Not 100% sure but pretty sure that a "No Firearms" sign would mean no rifle firearms and you could be hit with a trespassing charge for carrying a rifle even if you had a LTC. That sign alone would not be enough to stop entrance of a LTC holder with a handgun as 30.06/30.07 would be needed. Also, as far as I know a SBR is still a rifle and not a handgun and would not fit under 30.06/30.07 which is exclusively for handguns carried by LTC holders. You don't need a permit to carry a rifle in Texas, concealed or open.


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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#96

Post by Abraham » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:30 pm

rotor,

You posted: "If they want to keep rifles out they would need a "No Firearms" sign."

Does a sign like that hold the force of law?

I know if I don't see a 30.06 sign, but a sign with a pistol circled & slashed I can ignore it.

How is a "No firearms" sign different?

Does it carry the same weight of a 30.06 sign?


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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#97

Post by rotor » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:35 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
Abraham wrote:rotor,

"Now if the sign said no firearms than trespass laws would apply."

Are you sure?

I'm thinking such signs can't be enforced by law, but it's an interesting point.
The sign would have to have the 30.06 language to ban handguns AND language indicating that entry was forbidden to persons carrying firearms, for 30.05 to potentially apply (to long guns)
So wouldn't the "No Firearms" sign (not a handgun with a slash) cover the rifle part.


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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#98

Post by rotor » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:40 pm

Abraham wrote:rotor,

You posted: "If they want to keep rifles out they would need a "No Firearms" sign."

Does a sign like that hold the force of law?

I know if I don't see a 30.06 sign, but a sign with a pistol circled & slashed I can ignore it.

How is a "No firearms" sign different?

Does it carry the same weight of a 30.06 sign?
I guess as much law as a sign that said "No Trespassing" or "No Entrance without a Shirt" as part of the trespass law. I believe they could ask you to leave and if not call the police. Does it carry the same weight? I guess that depends on the penalty. Class C misdemeanor for 30.06 but can be class A.


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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#99

Post by Abraham » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:45 pm

ScottDLS,

The "ham sandwich" prosecutor was Sam Waterston.

O.K. it wasn't, but he did bat the "ham sandwich" indictment idea around.

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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#100

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:48 pm

Abraham, ok, I understand your question better. It isn't "what are the odds of discovery", it's "what would happen in the unlikely event of discovery"......am I right?

Partly, I would defer to Jusme, as he is/was LEO. FOR MY OWN PART, I assume that a rational cop, knowing that you had broken no law, and therefore could not arrest you, would warn you to no longer trespass the building. Here's my reason for that assumption. Consider the question, "who is likely to discover me", it probably isn't a cop......it would probably be one of two scenarios:
  1. A representative of the business which you have entered somehow sees your carbine concealed deeply in your briefcase. The how of that assumption is that he/she was a thief, looking to steal something while you weren't looking, OR, you were really bad at concealing the weapon inside the briefcase, or were using a briefcase ill-suited for that purpose, and you were indiscreet when you opened it to retrieve something from it. THAT person would make a big fuss - "we don't allow guns in here, you'll have to leave immediately!!!", and I, being an intelligent man, would leave immediately. I'm outside before the police arrive. The police arrive, and if I have not already departed the property, acost me in the parking lot. I am questioned, and I explain that I indeed have a lawfully carried long gun inside my briefcase, that I complied with 30.06 and did not enter with a handgun, and that when asked to leave, I LEFT, and was on my way to my car when LEO showed up. If asked why I carried a carbine in there in the first place, I would have said it was because I couldn't lawfully carry my handgun, but I did not want to be disarmed for all the usual reasons. I would make sure to explain that I was there on business.....but that was the last time I would do business with a bunch of hysterics like that.

    I seriously that an LEO would arrest me at that point. (1) I had broken no laws that he could charge me with. (2) On being told to leave, I left, so that I would not be trespassing. (2) In the parking lot, I'm not violating any laws. And (4) I was about to drive away. In other words, I am solving the problem myself, and he doesn't have to deal with it. Consider all the paperwork and pain the butt it would be if he had to arrest me - versus simply letting me go - and still not making any kind of charge stick. Also consider the lawsuit that would result if he tried to railroad charges through.

    He lets me walk.
  2. A representative of the business you've entered, again through your own indiscretion, somehow discovers your carbine inside your briefcase. He calls the police without saying anything to you, and does not tell you to leave. Police arrive and acost you in whatever location you're in.....say someone's office, or a meeting room. They're probably more wary. They question you aggressively. You explain yourself, say that you have violated no law, and that you didn't leave because you had no idea that you were being trespassed off the property; that if you had been told, you would have left; and you would like to leave now. If they bring up 30.06, tell them that you are not violating 30.06, but that you DO understand that you would have been violating 30.05....... except that you had not until this moment received effective notice from anyone, so you haven't violated 30.05 either. If the nice officers would like to escort you out of the building, you would appreciate it, since you don't do business with people who haven't got any sense so you have no intention of ever returning. If one of them wants to carry your briefcase on the way out, you should be OK with that. All of this conversation occurs before there is ever any need to cuff you, because you're a smart person, and you've been calm, reasonable, and truthful throughout the entire experience. Offer to the officers that you'd be happy to have the one carrying your briefcase acompany to your car, and put it in your trunk, if that would make them feel better the whole thing, and that you'd like to get back to your office, where you can begin finding a new vendor/client to replace the relationship you've just trashed.

    If they are rational, they'll let you walk. You've broken no law, you left without protest or resisting when trespassed, and you've been cooperative with their actions. Consider what happens if they decide to arrest you. You, being a rational person, do not resist arrest. You take the ride. You insist, as is your right, to know on what charge(s) you're being arrested. You cannot be charged with a violation of 30.06, as you weren't carrying a handgun - which that law is limited to covering. You cannot be charged with a violation of 30.05, as you immediately tried to leave upon receiving effective notice, which you had NOT received before entering the building. You can't be charged with a violation of 30.07 for the same reason as you can't be charged with violating 30.06.....no handgun involved at all. You can't be charged with disorderly conduct, because your conduct was not disorderly (the officers' own body cams will verify that). You can't be charged with carrying a concealed long gun, because there is no law against carrying a concealed long gun. You can't be charged with anything. What rational cop is going to take you down to the hoosegow, when he can't charge you with anything, and when your arrest means a bunch of paperwork for him?

All of the above assumes a rational police officer. There is always the possibility that you might run into a cop who disgraces the badge. But if that's the case, it's not going to matter where you are, or what you're doing. He/she will make up charges and toss you behind bars. But with a jerk like that, you don't have to be carrying any kind of gun, any which way, for that to happen. He just doesn't have to like the cut of your jib.

I think that, as long as you are discreet about it, especially if you're an old guy like me as I know you to be, then you really don't need to worry about it too much. Do like I did, and don't carry it where there is a high probability of being searched before entering an 06/07 posted location - such as a hospital - and go ahead and carry it where there is very little likelihood of being searched.....06/07 or not. And on the ridiculously small chance of discovery, stay calm and rational, and leave. The odds are that you'll be already out of the building before the cops can arrive - assuming they've been called.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#101

Post by twomillenium » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:58 pm

What if, what if, what if.
If I must go somewhere that is 30.06 posted. I grab my handy hardwood cane, which I occasionally do need. With some Hipkido training and a lot of practice, at least I do not feel completely unarmed. It also helps you get through the airport, because I do not fly somewhere without my cane.

Not a cure, but definitely an option.
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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#102

Post by Abraham » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:15 pm

TAM,

A cogent explanation.

Thank you for taking the time.

You posted: "Abraham, ok, I understand your question better. It isn't "what are the odds of discovery", it's "what would happen in the unlikely event of discovery"......am I right?

You are right!

I'm concerned about the potential consequences with the ill informed, blustery, as they are out there, not the rational, well informed officer.

And, as you described, there's no fighting the irrational except as far as I know, later in court...

We've knocked the ideas about and for me it's a good bet that carrying a concealed Bond, James Bond rifle is actually a reasonable idea where necessary.

No question, we geezers can't scramble around on the ground and vanquish young thugs as once we could, so what to do?

Stay armed, even in 30.06 locations, with necessities like the Sub2k.


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NotRPB
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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#103

Post by NotRPB » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:17 pm

twomillenium wrote:What if, what if, what if.
If I must go somewhere that is 30.06 posted. I grab my handy hardwood cane, which I occasionally do need. With some Hipkido training and a lot of practice, at least I do not feel completely unarmed. It also helps you get through the airport, because I do not fly somewhere without my cane.

Not a cure, but definitely an option.
:iagree:
I too carry my hardwood cane, but but what if we take a ride for carrying a cane past a 30.06 sign???
Oh wait
30.06 applies to Handguns
and only to handguns carried under authority of a License to Carry

I have no license to carry my cane ... and it's not prohibited by law to carry without a license.... guess i won't worry about carrying that which is not illegal.
I seem to recall a Federal Law about Police araesting someone for something which i not illegal is a viloation of their cibil rights and the arrest cannot be made in good faith for that which is not illegal
:thumbs2:
Last edited by NotRPB on Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ScottDLS
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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#104

Post by ScottDLS » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:18 pm

rotor wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:
Abraham wrote:rotor,

"Now if the sign said no firearms than trespass laws would apply."

Are you sure?

I'm thinking such signs can't be enforced by law, but it's an interesting point.
The sign would have to have the 30.06 language to ban handguns AND language indicating that entry was forbidden to persons carrying firearms, for 30.05 to potentially apply (to long guns)
So wouldn't the "No Firearms" sign (not a handgun with a slash) cover the rifle part.
Assuming that all concerned consider a sign that says "no firearms" means that your entry to the property is forbidden....if you are carrying a firearm other than a handgun. To me it's not that clear, especially if it's on a 30.06 along with the required verbiage.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


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Re: Sub2k Sub2000 folding concealed rifle

#105

Post by NotRPB » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:23 pm

My interpretation of a "No Firearms" sign which does not cite Penal Code 30.05, indicates they prefer I carry a Black Powder or an Antique pistol or rifle. if that pistol or rifle is not defined as a firearm
3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:

(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or

(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.
I get a kick out of "firearm does not include a firearm ... "
Last edited by NotRPB on Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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