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Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Yes, innocent people can be charged unjustly, but I don't know of any, haven't heard of any, and if they exist, they are a rarity, not the general rule as people are being told.

Chas.

That is definitely reassuring. I have to say things were presented in the opposite direction in my class. I'll definitely take your word for it though.

I'll admit that the criminal / legal system is a scary thing to have to be involved in, no matter what the reason. If it means that I kept myself or my family members alive, I'll readily subject myself to going through court proceedings. Life is more important to me than the fear of the justice system.

It's all a personal choice that each of us has to make for ourselves.

Ryan wrote:I'll admit that the criminal / legal system is a scary thing to have to be involved in, no matter what the reason. If it means that I kept myself or my family members alive, I'll readily subject myself to going through court proceedings. Life is more important to me than the fear of the justice system.

It's all a personal choice that each of us has to make for ourselves.

Ive set a personal boundary, if a life is in danger, I will attempt to protect it. Property can be replaced but ill stand in front of a judge all day long to save a life.

Call your instructor back, tell him you're really interested in the pre paid legal service he was recommending.. So much so you would like to do your due diligence to know how MUCH insurance coverage to buy.. Ask him to supply the defendant names in Texas cases where an LTC holder was charged with a crime post self defense with a handgun...

When he can't, of tells you ...well there was this one guy...but no names, no location, no jurisdiction ..
Then Call the prepaid legal service and ask the same..

After you have done both of those things..you will have your answer.

bblhd672 wrote:Took LTC Class yesterday- learned a lot but came away questioning if the legal deck is heavily stacked against anyone who discharges their firearm in a situation where it is justified.
Instructor made many statements about how much the legal bills would be if an LTC holder used their weapon.
The classroom did have the typical "[Pre-paid legal service]" posters and it was recommended that having a service like that would be beneficial. Okay, so after reading more about [Pre-paid legal service] I question whether or not its worthwhile.

Would it be better just to have one or more pro-2nd Amendment defense attorneys contact info on hand to call if needed?

I understand that if you have to use your weapon legally that you can expect to have your life turned upside down until you are cleared, but is it such a potentially dire situation as made out to be my instructor?

Thank you Mr. Cotton.

jb2012 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Yes, innocent people can be charged unjustly, but I don't know of any, haven't heard of any, and if they exist, they are a rarity, not the general rule as people are being told.

Chas.

That is definitely reassuring. I have to say things were presented in the opposite direction in my class. I'll definitely take your word for it though.

There are two possible threats here: criminal liability (being charged with a crime), and civil liability (being sued by another citizen).

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of self-defense shootings of people where blood is spilled each year, and I read of very few where the defender actually had to defend himself against the DA. Everybody (here in Texas anyway) thinks of Joe Horn, but he danced really close to, if not in, the fire. It's hard to think of too many more, I can only come up with one at the moment, and I look for these things. Most are like that apartment dweller in Dallas that shot the NFL guy who busted down the wrong door. The troublesome cases seem to be where the initial defender went far beyond what was prudent, like chasing a burglar down the street or shooting at someone's tires.

As for civil liability, I also can only think of a couple times in the past few years when it actually appeared the defender might be sued by relatives of the deceased attacker, (and IIRC, Joe Horn was not one of them), and I doubt they came to anything. I can't even remember what those incidents were to search on them.

ELB wrote:

jb2012 wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Yes, innocent people can be charged unjustly, but I don't know of any, haven't heard of any, and if they exist, they are a rarity, not the general rule as people are being told.

Chas.

That is definitely reassuring. I have to say things were presented in the opposite direction in my class. I'll definitely take your word for it though.

There are two possible threats here: criminal liability (being charged with a crime), and civil liability (being sued by another citizen).

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of self-defense shootings of people where blood is spilled each year, and I read of very few where the defender actually had to defend himself against the DA. Everybody (here in Texas anyway) thinks of Joe Horn, but he danced really close to, if not in, the fire. It's hard to think of too many more, I can only come up with one at the moment, and I look for these things. Most are like that apartment dweller in Dallas that shot the NFL guy who busted down the wrong door. The troublesome cases seem to be where the initial defender went far beyond what was prudent, like chasing a burglar down the street or shooting at someone's tires.

As for civil liability, I also can only think of a couple times in the past few years when it actually appeared the defender might be sued by relatives of the deceased attacker, (and IIRC, Joe Horn was not one of them), and I doubt they came to anything. I can't even remember what those incidents were to search on them.

Funny you mention Joe Horn, he was one of the examples given to us at our class. I agree he was definitely dancing in the fire.

I am so thankful that I got my LTC (CHL) through the fine folks at Crossfire. And that I was also able to attend one of Mr. Cotton's seminars on self-defense and the law some years back. Good, straightforward information.

I think it's importantant to remember that Joe Horn was no-billed by the grand-jury. If I understand it correctly he was never arrested, never had to pay bail, and there is no defense allowed on a grand jury hearing. I suspect that his legal bills weren't all that high.

I think the chances of us getting involved with a fatal acident and being charged with manslaughter as a result from an accident is probably more likely ( a lot depending on our temperment and and driving skills) Situationl awareness, knowing the rules, and good judgement is our best insurance.

Liberty wrote:I think it's importantant to remember that Joe Horn was no-billed by the grand-jury. ...

Yes, exactly, that's the point. I wouldn't use his case as a model of self-defense/defense of others/defense of property, but neither does it give reason to fear out-of-control prosecution nor civil liability.

Perhaps someone with better legal sense than I can clear up the conflict in the two excerpts from CHL-16 below:


PC §9.06. CIVIL REMEDIES UNAFFECTED.
The fact that conduct is justified under this chapter does not abolish or impair any remedy for the conduct that is available in a civil suit.
---
Last amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

CPRC §83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY.
A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s use of force or deadly force, as applicable.
---
Last amended by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1 (S.B. 378), Sec. 4, eff. Sept. 1, 2007.

bblhd672 wrote:Perhaps someone with better legal sense than I can clear up the conflict in the two excerpts from CHL-16 below:


PC §9.06. CIVIL REMEDIES UNAFFECTED.
The fact that conduct is justified under this chapter does not abolish or impair any remedy for the conduct that is available in a civil suit.
---
Last amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, Sec. 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

CPRC §83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY.
A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s use of force or deadly force, as applicable.
---
Last amended by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1 (S.B. 378), Sec. 4, eff. Sept. 1, 2007.

Try this thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=50485&start=15&hilit=civil+immunity

Also, if you search on "Civil Immunity" you will find quite a bit of discussion on this, but I think the thread I listed pretty much covers it.

E.Marquez wrote:After you have done both of those things..you will have your answer.

Right on!

I figure if I have to go to jail for defending my family or myself, then so be it. But considering how much a defense attorney can cost it was worth the small monthly fee to have a little extra insurance for it though. I asked a attorney one time how much it would cost for him to defend me in a shooting situation and he said he would want $25,000 up front just to take the case. Additional costs and fees come later. Getting expert witnesses in to testify can be expensive as well. Now then the Grand jury might not indict you, but you'll be in the hot seat until they make their decision. Anyway it can be a huge burden even if you are in the right for a shooting situation.

The perpetrator, on the other hand, gets a public defender for free. Usually suing them for damages etc is a waste of time as the perp usually has nothing anyway.

The main detail I remember about Joe Horn is that he didn't shut up. After defending yourself or others, nothing you say to the press will benefit you. If you feel that something needs to be said to the press, hire someone.

Reminds me of one of the jokes told by Ron White (Blue collar comedy). "I had the right to remain silent but ... I didn't have the ability..."

In Houston, one of the best Criminal Defense Attorneys is Rusty Hardin. (or at least his office) His contact information is "In the book" and in my smart phone.

When PSC renewed it's insurance a few years back, the insurance company "threw in" a legal reimbursement policy for all the members. It's been around a decade and I know there were a lot of qualifiers to the policy but it gives you an idea of the value of the legal insurance. PSC Membership is about $200 / year (including tax title and license)