Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

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Take Down Sicko
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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#16

Post by Take Down Sicko » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:32 am

Vol Texan, Just wondering if you made a decision on a holster? If so...which one did you order? :txflag:

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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#17

Post by Vol Texan » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:24 pm

Take Down Sicko wrote:Vol Texan, Just wondering if you made a decision on a holster? If so...which one did you order? :txflag:
Yes, I have decided on Randy Warren.

I knew I didn't want to buy one off the shelf, because my handgun is a bit unique. I have a Colt 1991 model which had a SafetyFast shooting system installed on it before it was gifted to me. This gives it an ambidextrous safety, and modifies the hammer position while still carrying in condition one. This means the thumb break would need to be a bit higher than on a traditional 1911. I won’t do a good job explaining it, but hopefully these links will give you more information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs3kl2cTkGI and http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfssystem.shtml.

SIDE TOPIC:

I know there are a lot of 1911 purists out there who would think that this is an abomination - why mess with perfection? Well, (a) I'm no purist, (b) I don't see perfection in any one platform, and (c) I can recognize that even the greatest inventions have the potential to be made even better. "Better" is, of course, in the eye of the beholder, but I have to admit that this SFS has grown on me. In a normal 1911, the safety lever activates and deactivates the safety. On this one, pushing the hammer forward activates the safety. The safety lever itself only deactivates it (while simultaneously snapping the hammer to the rearward position - just watch the video above). So, the process steps to FIRE the gun are the same as with a normal 1911 - draw, disengage the safety lever, and fire. But the process steps to SAFE the gun are different - just push the hammer forward.

Why do I like it: I like that I can feel the hammer below my cover garment and know that because it is forward, the safety is engaged. If it is back, then the safety would have been disengaged by mistake, and I can simply push the hammer forward to re-engage it.

END SIDE TOPIC

So...because this was a weird setup, I knew that a standard off the shelf holster with thumb break wouldn't fit it. A 'normal' thumb break would be sized to hold the gun in with the hammer back - and it would not fit over mine with the hammer forward. I needed mine to be a bit higher, and it would doubly serve the purpose of holding the gun in and ensuring it was always on safe.

Randy Warren doesn't keep much stock on hand. He makes most things custom, and makes very attractive holsters of high quality. I figured this was a good match since I didn't want anyone to push their existing inventory on me.

Fast forward to now - Randy and I have shared a bunch of info back and forth. He is reluctant to build such a custom thumb snap setup without the gun in hand, because he wants to make sure it fits properly. Likewise, if I ever want to use it on another 1911, or sell it, it would be nearly useless with any other gun.

So that got me thinking...I actually have two 1911-style pistols. One is the already mentioned 1991 with the SFS system installed, and the other is an Argentine D.G.F.M - (F.M.A.P) Sist. 1927. According to this site (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=68064), it’s one of the better Colt replicas, made with Colt machinery, under the supervision of Colt engineers. This one was a gift from Mrs. Vol Texan, and it has a lot of meaning to it. She is an Argentinean native, this was an Army-issued pistol (it is stamped with Ejercito Argentino on the slide), and I was in the Army, so she thought it fit well into my 'really like this gun' spectrum (she's right, of course!).

Yeah, I really don’t have any ‘normal’ 1911s, do I? Maybe that’ll change someday.

Considering that I own two of these, each with different mechanisms (and because my wife suggested that I should be able to carry either of them), I agreed with Randy's suggestion to not have a thumb break on this holster (despite the strong suggestions on this thread that I should have one). I'll still carry 95% of my time concealed anyway, so I won't be giving up much at all. I do look forward to seeing his completed design, and wearing it to one of our upcoming West / South Quadrant Forum Breakfasts here in Houston!

Sorry for the long explanation, but I've got to get back in the swing of things if I'm ever going to catch TAM on word count per message. :lol::
Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

www.HoustonLTC.com: Texas LTC Instructor & NRA Pistol Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator | Armored Cav. | Tennessee Squire

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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#18

Post by Take Down Sicko » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:29 pm

V. T., I like the safety on that video. With a safety like that i wouldnt mind having a 1911 style pistol. I have shown you my R.D. Warren holster at one of our meet ups. He makes great looking holsters with a price thats hard to beat. Its my favorite of the six holsters i have for my Shield. Hope you receive it before our next meet up. One of the hardest things to do is wait for one of Mr. Warrens holster to arrive. It took about two weeks from date ordered to arrival. Hope all fits well and congrats on your good taste for leather.


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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#19

Post by 1911 Raptor » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:00 pm

Vol Texan wrote:
Take Down Sicko wrote:Vol Texan, Just wondering if you made a decision on a holster? If so...which one did you order? :txflag:
Yes, I have decided on Randy Warren.

I knew I didn't want to buy one off the shelf, because my handgun is a bit unique. I have a Colt 1991 model which had a SafetyFast shooting system installed on it before it was gifted to me. This gives it an ambidextrous safety, and modifies the hammer position while still carrying in condition one. This means the thumb break would need to be a bit higher than on a traditional 1911. I won’t do a good job explaining it, but hopefully these links will give you more information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs3kl2cTkGI and http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfssystem.shtml.

SIDE TOPIC:

I know there are a lot of 1911 purists out there who would think that this is an abomination - why mess with perfection? Well, (a) I'm no purist, (b) I don't see perfection in any one platform, and (c) I can recognize that even the greatest inventions have the potential to be made even better. "Better" is, of course, in the eye of the beholder, but I have to admit that this SFS has grown on me. In a normal 1911, the safety lever activates and deactivates the safety. On this one, pushing the hammer forward activates the safety. The safety lever itself only deactivates it (while simultaneously snapping the hammer to the rearward position - just watch the video above). So, the process steps to FIRE the gun are the same as with a normal 1911 - draw, disengage the safety lever, and fire. But the process steps to SAFE the gun are different - just push the hammer forward.

Why do I like it: I like that I can feel the hammer below my cover garment and know that because it is forward, the safety is engaged. If it is back, then the safety would have been disengaged by mistake, and I can simply push the hammer forward to re-engage it.

END SIDE TOPIC

So...because this was a weird setup, I knew that a standard off the shelf holster with thumb break wouldn't fit it. A 'normal' thumb break would be sized to hold the gun in with the hammer back - and it would not fit over mine with the hammer forward. I needed mine to be a bit higher, and it would doubly serve the purpose of holding the gun in and ensuring it was always on safe.

Randy Warren doesn't keep much stock on hand. He makes most things custom, and makes very attractive holsters of high quality. I figured this was a good match since I didn't want anyone to push their existing inventory on me.

Fast forward to now - Randy and I have shared a bunch of info back and forth. He is reluctant to build such a custom thumb snap setup without the gun in hand, because he wants to make sure it fits properly. Likewise, if I ever want to use it on another 1911, or sell it, it would be nearly useless with any other gun.

So that got me thinking...I actually have two 1911-style pistols. One is the already mentioned 1991 with the SFS system installed, and the other is an Argentine D.G.F.M - (F.M.A.P) Sist. 1927. According to this site (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=68064), it’s one of the better Colt replicas, made with Colt machinery, under the supervision of Colt engineers. This one was a gift from Mrs. Vol Texan, and it has a lot of meaning to it. She is an Argentinean native, this was an Army-issued pistol (it is stamped with Ejercito Argentino on the slide), and I was in the Army, so she thought it fit well into my 'really like this gun' spectrum (she's right, of course!).

Yeah, I really don’t have any ‘normal’ 1911s, do I? Maybe that’ll change someday.

Considering that I own two of these, each with different mechanisms (and because my wife suggested that I should be able to carry either of them), I agreed with Randy's suggestion to not have a thumb break on this holster (despite the strong suggestions on this thread that I should have one). I'll still carry 95% of my time concealed anyway, so I won't be giving up much at all. I do look forward to seeing his completed design, and wearing it to one of our upcoming West / South Quadrant Forum Breakfasts here in Houston!

Sorry for the long explanation, but I've got to get back in the swing of things if I'm ever going to catch TAM on word count per message. :lol::
Not sure I see the benefit of the safety, it looks like a fix for something that doesn’t need fixing. Now you have to rely on the safety to not only disengage but to cock the hammer? No Thank You. Adding more things to potentially fail to a firearm that is designed to work a certain way is IMHO another opportunity for a failure at the worst time. If the safety disengages but doesn’t cock the hammer someone’s in a world of hurt.

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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#20

Post by Vol Texan » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:48 pm

1911 Raptor wrote:
Vol Texan wrote:
Take Down Sicko wrote:Vol Texan, Just wondering if you made a decision on a holster? If so...which one did you order? :txflag:
Yes, I have decided on Randy Warren.

I knew I didn't want to buy one off the shelf, because my handgun is a bit unique. I have a Colt 1991 model which had a SafetyFast shooting system installed on it before it was gifted to me. This gives it an ambidextrous safety, and modifies the hammer position while still carrying in condition one. This means the thumb break would need to be a bit higher than on a traditional 1911. I won’t do a good job explaining it, but hopefully these links will give you more information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs3kl2cTkGI and http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfssystem.shtml.

SIDE TOPIC:

I know there are a lot of 1911 purists out there who would think that this is an abomination - why mess with perfection? Well, (a) I'm no purist, (b) I don't see perfection in any one platform, and (c) I can recognize that even the greatest inventions have the potential to be made even better. "Better" is, of course, in the eye of the beholder
, but I have to admit that this SFS has grown on me. In a normal 1911, the safety lever activates and deactivates the safety. On this one, pushing the hammer forward activates the safety. The safety lever itself only deactivates it (while simultaneously snapping the hammer to the rearward position - just watch the video above). So, the process steps to FIRE the gun are the same as with a normal 1911 - draw, disengage the safety lever, and fire. But the process steps to SAFE the gun are different - just push the hammer forward.

Why do I like it: I like that I can feel the hammer below my cover garment and know that because it is forward, the safety is engaged. If it is back, then the safety would have been disengaged by mistake, and I can simply push the hammer forward to re-engage it.

END SIDE TOPIC

So...because this was a weird setup, I knew that a standard off the shelf holster with thumb break wouldn't fit it. A 'normal' thumb break would be sized to hold the gun in with the hammer back - and it would not fit over mine with the hammer forward. I needed mine to be a bit higher, and it would doubly serve the purpose of holding the gun in and ensuring it was always on safe.

Randy Warren doesn't keep much stock on hand. He makes most things custom, and makes very attractive holsters of high quality. I figured this was a good match since I didn't want anyone to push their existing inventory on me.

Fast forward to now - Randy and I have shared a bunch of info back and forth. He is reluctant to build such a custom thumb snap setup without the gun in hand, because he wants to make sure it fits properly. Likewise, if I ever want to use it on another 1911, or sell it, it would be nearly useless with any other gun.

So that got me thinking...I actually have two 1911-style pistols. One is the already mentioned 1991 with the SFS system installed, and the other is an Argentine D.G.F.M - (F.M.A.P) Sist. 1927. According to this site (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=68064), it’s one of the better Colt replicas, made with Colt machinery, under the supervision of Colt engineers. This one was a gift from Mrs. Vol Texan, and it has a lot of meaning to it. She is an Argentinean native, this was an Army-issued pistol (it is stamped with Ejercito Argentino on the slide), and I was in the Army, so she thought it fit well into my 'really like this gun' spectrum (she's right, of course!).

Yeah, I really don’t have any ‘normal’ 1911s, do I? Maybe that’ll change someday.

Considering that I own two of these, each with different mechanisms (and because my wife suggested that I should be able to carry either of them), I agreed with Randy's suggestion to not have a thumb break on this holster (despite the strong suggestions on this thread that I should have one). I'll still carry 95% of my time concealed anyway, so I won't be giving up much at all. I do look forward to seeing his completed design, and wearing it to one of our upcoming West / South Quadrant Forum Breakfasts here in Houston!

Sorry for the long explanation, but I've got to get back in the swing of things if I'm ever going to catch TAM on word count per message. :lol::
Not sure I see the benefit of the safety, it looks like a fix for something that doesn’t need fixing. Now you have to rely on the safety to not only disengage but to cock the hammer? No Thank You. Adding more things to potentially fail to a firearm that is designed to work a certain way is IMHO another opportunity for a failure at the worst time. If the safety disengages but doesn’t cock the hammer someone’s in a world of hurt.
I knew that my explanation could digress into this discussion, so I've re-highlighted in red font above the operative parts. Sure, it may be designed to work in a certain way, but now it's designed to work in a different way. But then again, I'm just a guy with a preference, just like all the rest of us are. Perhaps you'd prefer commentary from Massad Ayoob

Sure, more mechanism allows for more potential failure points. Perhaps we should all carry bolt-action pistols instead?
Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

www.HoustonLTC.com: Texas LTC Instructor & NRA Pistol Instructor | www.Texas3006.com Moderator | Armored Cav. | Tennessee Squire


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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#21

Post by 1911 Raptor » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:43 pm

Vol Texan wrote:
1911 Raptor wrote:
Vol Texan wrote:
Take Down Sicko wrote:Vol Texan, Just wondering if you made a decision on a holster? If so...which one did you order? :txflag:
Yes, I have decided on Randy Warren.

I knew I didn't want to buy one off the shelf, because my handgun is a bit unique. I have a Colt 1991 model which had a SafetyFast shooting system installed on it before it was gifted to me. This gives it an ambidextrous safety, and modifies the hammer position while still carrying in condition one. This means the thumb break would need to be a bit higher than on a traditional 1911. I won’t do a good job explaining it, but hopefully these links will give you more information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs3kl2cTkGI and http://www.cylinder-slide.com/sfssystem.shtml.

SIDE TOPIC:

I know there are a lot of 1911 purists out there who would think that this is an abomination - why mess with perfection? Well, (a) I'm no purist, (b) I don't see perfection in any one platform, and (c) I can recognize that even the greatest inventions have the potential to be made even better. "Better" is, of course, in the eye of the beholder
, but I have to admit that this SFS has grown on me. In a normal 1911, the safety lever activates and deactivates the safety. On this one, pushing the hammer forward activates the safety. The safety lever itself only deactivates it (while simultaneously snapping the hammer to the rearward position - just watch the video above). So, the process steps to FIRE the gun are the same as with a normal 1911 - draw, disengage the safety lever, and fire. But the process steps to SAFE the gun are different - just push the hammer forward.

Why do I like it: I like that I can feel the hammer below my cover garment and know that because it is forward, the safety is engaged. If it is back, then the safety would have been disengaged by mistake, and I can simply push the hammer forward to re-engage it.

END SIDE TOPIC

So...because this was a weird setup, I knew that a standard off the shelf holster with thumb break wouldn't fit it. A 'normal' thumb break would be sized to hold the gun in with the hammer back - and it would not fit over mine with the hammer forward. I needed mine to be a bit higher, and it would doubly serve the purpose of holding the gun in and ensuring it was always on safe.

Randy Warren doesn't keep much stock on hand. He makes most things custom, and makes very attractive holsters of high quality. I figured this was a good match since I didn't want anyone to push their existing inventory on me.

Fast forward to now - Randy and I have shared a bunch of info back and forth. He is reluctant to build such a custom thumb snap setup without the gun in hand, because he wants to make sure it fits properly. Likewise, if I ever want to use it on another 1911, or sell it, it would be nearly useless with any other gun.

So that got me thinking...I actually have two 1911-style pistols. One is the already mentioned 1991 with the SFS system installed, and the other is an Argentine D.G.F.M - (F.M.A.P) Sist. 1927. According to this site (https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=68064), it’s one of the better Colt replicas, made with Colt machinery, under the supervision of Colt engineers. This one was a gift from Mrs. Vol Texan, and it has a lot of meaning to it. She is an Argentinean native, this was an Army-issued pistol (it is stamped with Ejercito Argentino on the slide), and I was in the Army, so she thought it fit well into my 'really like this gun' spectrum (she's right, of course!).

Yeah, I really don’t have any ‘normal’ 1911s, do I? Maybe that’ll change someday.

Considering that I own two of these, each with different mechanisms (and because my wife suggested that I should be able to carry either of them), I agreed with Randy's suggestion to not have a thumb break on this holster (despite the strong suggestions on this thread that I should have one). I'll still carry 95% of my time concealed anyway, so I won't be giving up much at all. I do look forward to seeing his completed design, and wearing it to one of our upcoming West / South Quadrant Forum Breakfasts here in Houston!

Sorry for the long explanation, but I've got to get back in the swing of things if I'm ever going to catch TAM on word count per message. :lol::
Not sure I see the benefit of the safety, it looks like a fix for something that doesn’t need fixing. Now you have to rely on the safety to not only disengage but to cock the hammer? No Thank You. Adding more things to potentially fail to a firearm that is designed to work a certain way is IMHO another opportunity for a failure at the worst time. If the safety disengages but doesn’t cock the hammer someone’s in a world of hurt.
I knew that my explanation could digress into this discussion, so I've re-highlighted in red font above the operative parts. Sure, it may be designed to work in a certain way, but now it's designed to work in a different way. But then again, I'm just a guy with a preference, just like all the rest of us are. Perhaps you'd prefer commentary from Massad Ayoob

Sure, more mechanism allows for more potential failure points. Perhaps we should all carry bolt-action pistols instead?
Again I see it as a solution for a problem that does not exist. Massad didn’t actually endorse it only explained that it is a viable option for those who don’t like cocked and locked. It solves nothing but provides a piece of mind to those who don’t understand the 1911 platform.

I don’t understand the fear of cocked and locked. To each his own I guess.


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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#22

Post by EastTexasRancher » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:03 pm

I have an RD Warren with no thumb break for my 1911, and love it. Like another poster said, it’s damn near impossible for anyone but the wearer to draw the pistol out of the holster. It’s tight, and the cant helps the retention.

I have one WITH the thumb break for my M&P Shield, and wear it far more frequently, if not daily.

His holsters sit high and hug your body, making it disappear under the right shirt.

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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#23

Post by Vol Texan » Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:36 pm

1911 Raptor wrote:
Again I see it as a solution for a problem that does not exist. Massad didn’t actually endorse it only explained that it is a viable option for those who don’t like cocked and locked. It solves nothing but provides a piece of mind to those who don’t understand the 1911 platform.

I don’t understand the fear of cocked and locked. To each his own I guess.
I came here to update this thread to share photos of the new holster, but I wanted to respond to this one first.

The 'fear of cocked and locked' as you put it is absolutely NOT the problem. I see you only joined this forum in November (welcome to the forum, by the way), so you certainly have not read on here my story of why I chose not to carry a 1911 (or any other platform with a safety on it) for years now. I have nerve damage in my right thumb that makes it nearly impossible for me to (a) feel if the safety is on or off, and (b) confidently operate the safety in a defensive situation and know for a fact that I did, indeed move it to the fire position. I figured if I couldn't definitively know where the safety lever was at any time without looking or feeling with a different finger, then I couldn't trust myself with it.

So, for years, I have carried a gun with no safety. I've regained just a little bit of sensation in my thumb, enough now that I can sense where the high and low points are on the gun (indicating where the safety should be) - but it is still not enough to feel whether or not I have moved the lever.

This SFS system (which came with the gun - I never even knew it existed before then) solves this problem in two ways.
  • First, it reduces the travel of the safety lever significantly. Rather than moving from a 'locked in the slide' to a 'below the slide' position, it barely moves at all. Since I can't use the normal area of my thumb to push it, I slide further up and let the lower half of my thumb disengage. That reduces the amount of pressure I can apply, but because the safety doesn't travel as far, it's not a problem.
  • Second - and much more important - is the fact that when I do disengage the safety, the hammer flies back into position. That action creates enough of a mechanical movement in the gun that I don't have to look to see if it happened. I can hear the action, and feel it in my arm, to the same degree as you would feel if you were to dry fire your (UNLOADED) 1911. That adds an audible and tactile response to this safety mechanism that the 'normal' 1911 safety doesn't give me.
So yes, this adds a bit more mechanical complexity to my gun than your 1911 has. But then again, my other carry gun never had a safety, so I could argue that yours, with a safety, was significantly more complex than mine was on the draw.

So please, don't be judgemental. Not everything is as it seems. Contrary to what you suggested above, I do understand the 1911 platform, and I am not afraid of cocked and locked. I simply cannot operate that platform in its normal 'out of the factory' configuration given my nerve damage. However, I have been blessed to stumble upon a contraption that will allow me to carry it, as I am doing right now, as I type this. Think of it in the same light as an adaptive device to let someone in a wheelchair drive. Sure, they may not be able to use their legs as well as you, but that doesn't mean they (a) don't understand the driving platform, and (b) are afraid of driving a stick shift.

So now, back to our regularly scheduled programming. My holster arrived a week ago, and I've carried it quite a bit. It fits like a glove, and I really enjoy OWB. Randy made both the holster and the mag holder with the sweat shields, because I'm not a little guy, and there is enough of me rubbing against the metal that I wanted the extra protection.

Randy does INCREDIBLE work. He was extremely pleasant to talk with, and I learned a lot in the process. I gave him just a few parameters of what I wanted (holster cant, holster type). He asked me what kind of styling I wanted, and I told him to surprise me - I figured he'd do just fine (and he did!). My gun fits the holster like a glove, and it looks incredible. I will gladly order from him again in the future.
http://www.rdwarrenleather.com/index.html

Image
Last edited by Vol Texan on Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
When those fail, aim for center mass.

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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#24

Post by bblhd672 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:06 pm

Vol Texan wrote:Image
Nice, very nice.
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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#25

Post by Take Down Sicko » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:21 pm

V. T. What a set-up Randy made for you! That holster and carriers looks fantastic. If and when i buy a new pistol i will be asking Randy for another of his leather holsters. Again...nice job on both your parts. :cheers2:

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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#26

Post by JustSomeOldGuy » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:26 pm

I love the two-tone setup. Of course fashionwise, it's cheating. (goes with either brown belt/boots or black boots/belt instead of your having to buy two complete sets of holster and mag carriers - one set in each color) :evil2:
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Re: Thumb break or not on OWB leather holster?

#27

Post by OlBill » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:44 pm

bblhd672 wrote:
Vol Texan wrote:Image
Nice, very nice.
I'd wear it.

Not with that weird gun though. ;-)

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