Ammo type for Self Defense

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troglodyte
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#16

Post by troglodyte » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:20 pm

Not saying right or wrong, just something to think on.

Paul Harrell on hyper ammunition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rdMT_rT0Q0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdHR6i1I5M4
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#17

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:06 pm

This thread reminds me of a recent experience I had. I just got my first .44 magnum firearm (well I technically owned one before but never actually fired it - long story). I was buying some ammo for the range and asked the guy helping me to recommend a good self defense round. He replied "it's a .44 magnum, everything is a good self defense round."
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#18

Post by MaduroBU » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:55 pm

The cheapest stuff that will cycle reliably in your gun,and as nuch as you can afford. Then shoot all of it.

For carry, any of the loads that you cited will work great if the shots are well placed. They'll probably work badly with poor shooting.

We tend to agonize over what might be inside our gun should we ever be forced to draw. I think that we should instead focus upon what has passed through our guns at the range prior to such an encounter.

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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#19

Post by carlson1 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:22 pm

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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#20

Post by Grundy1133 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:33 pm

carlson1 wrote:May be interesting to some.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-d ... tests/#9mm
i carry a S&W .40. and that site gave some good info concerning the caliber itself as well as the different ammos tested...

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I'm starting to question if critical duty is the way to go or not... they seemed to over penetrate quite a bit. but ive people say "flesh and bone isnt the same as ballistic gel"...
Edit: just noticed the test gun was a Glock 27 sub compact I have a full size M&P... So ignore this post... Heh.
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#21

Post by RandyM » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:02 am

this article just came out, comparing ammo in 380, 9mm, 40, and 45, has images of each shot thru gel, good article.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/be ... 0-20729049

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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#22

Post by Grundy1133 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:54 am

RandyM wrote:this article just came out, comparing ammo in 380, 9mm, 40, and 45, has images of each shot thru gel, good article.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/be ... 0-20729049
see on all these tests, they use a compact for the S&W .40 which causes hornady critical duty (the ammo i carry) to over penetrate. however I carry a fullsize, which is what critical duty was really designed for... I wish they would have shot the ammo from a gun that the ammo was meant for. People look at all the different ammo that over penetrates and think wow that ammo sucks. but in rality its just being shot from the wrong kind of gun. same issue on the link someone else posted. the ammos being shot from a compact. Critical Defense is designed for compacts and Critical Duty is designed for full size guns. I'm gonna see if i can find a ballistics test done with compacts and full sizes. If i find anything Ill post it here for others who may carry a full size.
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#23

Post by Grundy1133 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:09 pm

Which should you choose for your defensive handgun? If you don't mind recoil, like more penetration and think you might have to deal with bad guys shooting at you from behind barriers, go with Critical Duty. If you prefer wider expansion and less recoil, choose Critical Defense, which is optimized for use in short-barreled, compact handguns.
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... ical-duty/
I carry full size which is the only reason I use critical Duty. If I ever started carrying a compact I'd prolly switch to critical defense.
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#24

Post by Pawpaw » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:28 am

Grundy1133 wrote:
RandyM wrote:this article just came out, comparing ammo in 380, 9mm, 40, and 45, has images of each shot thru gel, good article.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/be ... 0-20729049
see on all these tests, they use a compact for the S&W .40 which causes hornady critical duty (the ammo i carry) to over penetrate. however I carry a fullsize, which is what critical duty was really designed for... I wish they would have shot the ammo from a gun that the ammo was meant for. People look at all the different ammo that over penetrates and think wow that ammo sucks. but in rality its just being shot from the wrong kind of gun. same issue on the link someone else posted. the ammos being shot from a compact. Critical Defense is designed for compacts and Critical Duty is designed for full size guns. I'm gonna see if i can find a ballistics test done with compacts and full sizes. If i find anything Ill post it here for others who may carry a full size.
:iagree:

My Sig P938 9mm with it's 3.0" bbl is loaded with Critical Defense.
My Sig P238 .380 with it's 2.7" bbl is loaded with Critical Defense.
My Rock Island Officer's model .45ACP with it's 3.25" bbl is loaded with Critical Defense.
My Kimber Ultra CDP .45ACP with it's 3" bbl is loaded with Critical Defense,
My Dan Wesson V-bob .45ACP with it's 4.25" bbl is loaded with Critical Duty.
My Dan Wesson Guardian .45ACP with it's 4.25" bbl is loaded with Critical Duty.

If needed I also have an unopened case of Winchester .45ACP PDX1.
Last edited by Pawpaw on Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#25

Post by flechero » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:40 am

Grundy1133 wrote: see on all these tests, they use a compact for the S&W .40 which causes hornady critical duty (the ammo i carry) to over penetrate. however I carry a fullsize, which is what critical duty was really designed for... I wish they would have shot the ammo from a gun that the ammo was meant for.
Only two ways to make a bullet over penetrate gel... more velocity or less/no expansion.

What you have suggested is that duty ammo from a 1" shorter barrel is either moving faster (which it's not) or that it's moving so much slower that it's not expanding. This is more likely but still not comforting... generally handgun rounds don't lose more than 50-100 fps when dropping an inch to a compact. So if you are that close to the speed it fails to expand then anything you hit prior (think clothing even) will slow the bullet before it is in tissue. And considering that gel is the OPTIMUM medium for bullet expansion, you will likely see less real world performance on any real target.

If you are that close to the expansion/performance edge then I would consider an alternate carry ammo. I would at least test the critical defense in your gun... sounds like it expands at lower velocity and expands more reliably.

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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#26

Post by Grundy1133 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:49 am

flechero wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote: see on all these tests, they use a compact for the S&W .40 which causes hornady critical duty (the ammo i carry) to over penetrate. however I carry a fullsize, which is what critical duty was really designed for... I wish they would have shot the ammo from a gun that the ammo was meant for.
Only two ways to make a bullet over penetrate gel... more velocity or less/no expansion.

What you have suggested is that duty ammo from a 1" shorter barrel is either moving faster (which it's not) or that it's moving so much slower that it's not expanding. This is more likely but still not comforting... generally handgun rounds don't lose more than 50-100 fps when dropping an inch to a compact. So if you are that close to the speed it fails to expand then anything you hit prior (think clothing even) will slow the bullet before it is in tissue. And considering that gel is the OPTIMUM medium for bullet expansion, you will likely see less real world performance on any real target.

If you are that close to the expansion/performance edge then I would consider an alternate carry ammo. I would at least test the critical defense in your gun... sounds like it expands at lower velocity and expands more reliably.
Critical Duty® handgun ammunition is built to meet the needs and requirements of LAW ENFORCEMENT and TACTICAL PROFESSIONALS, as well as those law abiding citizens who prefer a full-size handgun for their personal protection and demand superior barrier penetration and subsequent terminal performance.
In addition, Critical Duty® loads are "full power loads" designed to function full-size handgun slides. Although designed to work flawlessly in ALL handguns, these loads are NOT optimized for short barreled, concealed carry style handguns; they will deliver standard recoil during firing.
https://www.hornady.com/support/duty-de ... ifferences

Thats really why i went witih critical duty. I asked them why that was the case, and they said shooting critical defense from a full size doesnt allow th eround to reach optimum velocity due to the lack of gun powder. and shooting the higher grain out of a compact causes the critical duty to exceed their optimum velocity causing them to over penetrate... *shrug* it was awhile ago when i asked them and i have long since deleted the email, so i might have the details a bit off... the gist i took away from them was critical duty was better for fullsize guns and defense was best for shorter barrel guns.
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#27

Post by Steamboat » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:26 pm

I found this information interesting.
Critical-DUTY-vs-Critical-Defense.pdf
(796.3 KiB) Downloaded 32 times
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#28

Post by flechero » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:20 pm

Grundy,

I'm not trying to suggest that your ammo isn't great- but actual testing seems to be in conflict with some of the marketing info. (which by nature is supposed to make any ammo sound like the proverbial magic bullet) Just because they say it's designed to do x,y or z doesn't mean that your gun will act like their test guns or pressure chambers. No ammo can work perfect at all velocities and out of any gun.

Test in your own gun to see what happens. Gel and barrier tests are not too difficult to do if you have a place to do it, they are just time consuming to set up.

Just because you have a 5" bbl doesn't mean your performance is going to be better than a 4" bbl... I have a 45acp in 4" that routinely outpaces a 5" in the chronograph. Is that normal- no, but it happens enough to not take what the marketing guys say, as Gospel. Remember these are same the people who make "zombie" killing ammo. :lol:

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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#29

Post by Grundy1133 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:53 pm

flechero wrote:Grundy,

I'm not trying to suggest that your ammo isn't great- but actual testing seems to be in conflict with some of the marketing info. (which by nature is supposed to make any ammo sound like the proverbial magic bullet) Just because they say it's designed to do x,y or z doesn't mean that your gun will act like their test guns or pressure chambers. No ammo can work perfect at all velocities and out of any gun.

Test in your own gun to see what happens. Gel and barrier tests are not too difficult to do if you have a place to do it, they are just time consuming to set up.

Just because you have a 5" bbl doesn't mean your performance is going to be better than a 4" bbl... I have a 45acp in 4" that routinely outpaces a 5" in the chronograph. Is that normal- no, but it happens enough to not take what the marketing guys say, as Gospel. Remember these are same the people who make "zombie" killing ammo. :lol:
true, true... i wouldnt even know where to get ballistics gel. i definitely have a place to do it tho.
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Re: Ammo type for Self Defense

#30

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:58 pm

Am I the only one here who tries to use the same round for all guns? I use HST for all my semi-auto's. 147gr for 9mm and 230gr for .45.

I rotate through several different carry guns, and having a different load for short vs long barrels would confuse the heck out of me. Not to mention that I like to unload the round from the chamber before a gun goes in the safe (the mag stays loaded). I just put the loose round on the top shelf. I don't think I could tell the difference between a 9mm 147gr round and a 115gr round if they were both HST, and I would probably just end up mixing them up anyway.

The .45's include everything from a Shield to full size 1911's, and the 9mm's include everything from a P938 to a full size PPQ. Am I losing much by just running the same weight and type of bullet in guns with different barrel lengths?
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