Medical accessories

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Odinvalknir
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Medical accessories

#1

Post by Odinvalknir » Tue May 01, 2018 6:23 pm

So having been a medic for a few years, I have at least the very basic skills of being able to give somebody triage, or at least some immediate medical help. I was curious as to what kind of little things do you carry as far as medical stuff? Or do y'all even think it's necessary? I myself think that I could stop my own bleeding as long as I wasn't hit or wounded somewhere that I could not reach. David and on another person I would be able to at least manage the bleeding long enough for more equipped Medics and whoever to get there.


But I also was thinking about what if in the event that you had to stop a BG, would you feel comfortable enough rendering first aid to that person after the altercation? Or do you think calling the medics for that person is enough medical attention for somebody you just had to use deadly force against? My license instructor told me of a case where after going through the incident and going to court over it the prosecution used a tactic against him involving the man not giving any medical help to the person he had used Force against. I'm not sure if it was in the Criminal part or if he was tried in a civil case, but the fact remains do you think giving trauma care to someone you had to use deadly force is logical?


Tl;dr


1. What if any medical accessories do you also carry on your person along with or independent of your firearm?

2. Do you think it is logical to proceed to give medical first aid to someone whom you have just use your weapon against?
Last edited by Odinvalknir on Tue May 01, 2018 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Odinvalknir
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Re: Medical accessories

#2

Post by Odinvalknir » Tue May 01, 2018 6:24 pm

If you are wondering what the response of the man in his defense was against the question of why he didn't render medical assistance. My instructor said the man had said he called the EMS, and that was the extent of his medical assistance to the person.


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Re: Medical accessories

#3

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Tue May 01, 2018 6:40 pm

First off, I would render aid after ensuring that the threat was fully neutralized, meaning none of the BG's friends still lurking around, no chance of the injured BG grabbing my gun, preferably having someone else who could hold my gun and cover me, etc.

I recently stocked up with some Quikclot sponges, and pressure bandages (not Israeli bandages but another type recommended by someone on this forum). These went into my home first aid kit as well as the kit that I keep in my range bag. I would do what I possibly could do stabilize the BG and stop the bleeding until medics arrived. Just because I was forced to shoot the guy does not mean that I want him (or her) to die.

That said, my EDC is a .45 most days, and my go to HD weapon is either a 12 gauge or a 5.56mm, so my life saving efforts could be in vain, unfortunately.
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Re: Medical accessories

#4

Post by ninjabread » Tue May 01, 2018 6:51 pm

I carry medical gear but unless the bad guy is dead or unconscious, he's still a threat to me if I get close enough. I'll call 911 and let EMS render aid, but even they sometimes wait until LEO make the scene safe.
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Re: Medical accessories

#5

Post by oljames3 » Tue May 01, 2018 7:21 pm

ninjabread wrote:I carry medical gear but unless the bad guy is dead or unconscious, he's still a threat to me if I get close enough. I'll call 911 and let EMS render aid, but even they sometimes wait until LEO make the scene safe.
:iagree:
I carry a SOFTT-W on my belt. On the range, we have clotting agent, chest seals, pressure bandages, etc. I carry what will fit on my belt or in my pockets.
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Re: Medical accessories

#6

Post by SRO1911 » Tue May 01, 2018 7:58 pm

I carry a CAT on my belt along with a benchmade lifehook (try one - you can cut rings around shears). I have a very well stocked jump bag in each of my vehicles courtesy of my fire dept so I am never far from all the good stuff. When renting a car or road tripping with someone else, I throw an IFAK in a cargo pocket.
As far as rendering aid to someone I just used force against, that is an ethical dilemma that I don't believe I can give an honest answer to without actually being in that situation - I really don't know. I have had to help some people in situations that went against every moral fiber in my being, but its part of the job, and once on scene there is no room for judgement.
When any govt, or church,says This you can't read, are forbidden to know, the result is tyranny and oppression. Little force is needed to control a man who has been hoodwinked; no force can control a free man, not the rack, bombs, not anything, you can't conquer a free man, at most you can kill him.


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Re: Medical accessories

#7

Post by Mike S » Tue May 01, 2018 8:56 pm

Question #1:
On my person, I rarely carry an aid kit or tourniquet. That's something that I intend to rectify in the short term, but haven't yet.

In both of our vehicles I have an old M-3 aid bag (surplus Combat Lifesaver bag), that I've stocked with the following:
- 1x SOFT-W (for massive extremity bleeds)
- 1-2x Quikclot Combat Gauzes (for junctional bleeds)
- 2x Chest seals (for entrance & exit wounds)
- 1-2x regular gauze
- several field dressings (old Army style; Israeli style; etc)
- several cravats
- 2-3 pairs of gloves
- EMT shears
- 1-2 NPAs (nasopharyngeal airways; adult size)
- 1x J-Tube (oropharyngeal airway, adult size)

Each vehicle also has a CAT tourniquet handy within the passenger compartment.

Inside the home, inside our pseudo-safe room (to minimum NRA Personal Protection in the Home standards, not Jodi Foster Panic Room standards), we have a similar bag, but with a couple extra TQs & bandages/chest seals sitting out readily accessible.

Question #2:
Not to sound heartless, but with an understanding of how the mind works when massive hemorrhage occurs & deprives the brain of oxygenated blood, I'm not likely to approach an attacker once he's down. On average, we have about 5 liters of blood running through us; when a person loses around (+/-) 2 liters, they can become confused/lethargic/etc as the body goes into self-preservation mode. I don't want to be up close & personal when they hit this point of mental confusion, forgot they had capitulated moments ago, & become combative. Last thing I want to do is grapple with my attacker when I didn't need to. (My priorities of work would be to assess the situation, account for my loved ones, & call 911. After that, I'll gladly take my chances with rendering aid to an innocent third party).


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Re: Medical accessories

#8

Post by crazy2medic » Tue May 01, 2018 9:06 pm

I carry a small backpack it has 2-5×9, 2-ab pad, multiple rolls of both curlex and kling, multiple 4x4s, 2 foil wrapped gauze for sucking chest wounds, two rolls of silk medical tape, IV supplies in case family members are injured, misc other medical stuff.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Medical accessories

#9

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue May 01, 2018 10:39 pm

“Hello 911, please send an ambulance and police to my location at the intersection of X and Y streets. Someone has been shot. I’ll be the old guy with the white beard.” Hang up, and don’t answer when they try to call you back. You’ve just rendered all the medical care necessary to cover your butt, and without placing yourself into unnecessary danger by getting too close to the man you just had to shoot BECAUSE HE WAS TRYING TO KILL YOU!!!!!

If he WASN’T trying to kill you, then why did you shoot him?

When I go to the range, I’ve always got an IFAK with me, which is fairly well supplied. Included is a SOFTT-W tourniquet, and the same Benchmade Lifehook that SRO1911 mentioned. When I travel by car on road trips, I bring a fully stocked medical bag that would allow my wife and I to render aid to multiple patients with traumatic injuries.

I confess that I don’t have my IFAK with me at all times. It’s a little too bulky to keep on my person. I can see the value of carrying a tourniquet and maybe the Lifehook at all times, and this thread is a reminder to start doing that. But carrying more than that on my person - every minute of the day that I am out and about - just isn’t a very convenient proposition for me. I understand that not having either my IFAK or Medical bag with me reduces my ability to self-aid or render aid to someone else, but that’s a risk I am willing to live with. But out on the open road where a multi-car pileup is a possibility, or at the range where there is a distinct possibility of someone getting shot, it’s not a risk I am willing to live with.

IFAK has, in addition to the above mentioned tourniquet and Lifehook,
  • a Russel chest seal,
  • an Oleas modular bandage,
  • a Quickclot combat gauze,
  • 2 Z-Pack dressings,
  • 3 Celox packets, a triangular bandage sling,
  • a pair of trauma scissors,
  • a pair of blue nytril gloves,
  • a dozen alcohol swabs,
  • and an Adsafe CPR pocket resuscitator mask.
The medical bag contains ALL of the above several times over, plus splints in limb and finger sizes, Kerlix gauze bandages, Ace bandages, sutures and forceps sets, scissors, bottles of electrolyte fluids (can be drunk or can be used as IV in an emergency), Zanfel allergy/bug bite treatment, bottled burn gel, gel burn dressings, multiple sizes of airways, extra tourniquets (ALL SOFTT-W), extra CPR resuscitator masks, extra Russell chest seals, extra gloves, alcohol swabs, etc., etc., etc. It all fills a backpack to nearly bursting.

I reckon that a tourniquet and Lifehook would be easy enough to EDC.
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Re: Medical accessories

#10

Post by troglodyte » Wed May 02, 2018 6:59 am

I had started carrying a CAT-7 TQ but now with the weather warmer and not wearing a vest it is a little obtrusive on the belt. I need to figure out a way to either carry it on my ankle, which I don't think I'll like, or go to a more compact TQ like the RATS or SWAT and relegate the CAT to the truck kit.
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Re: Medical accessories

#11

Post by Rob72 » Wed May 02, 2018 8:38 am

Odinvalknir wrote:
2. Do you think it is logical to proceed to give medical first aid to someone whom you have just use your weapon against?
The moment you touch the person whom you have shot, your legal position changes. It will be your burden to prove that their demise was not the result of your malfeasance or incompetence. The DA might take a pass on the question, a civil attorney, regardless of the justifiability of the shoot, has grounds to bring a suit because of the malpractice/malfeasance question. Render aid = call 911.

I have a small personal pack, and a more complete kit in the vehicle.

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Re: Medical accessories

#12

Post by allisji » Wed May 02, 2018 8:59 am

I'm following this discussion because I realize how ill-prepared I am to give first aid and have a lot to learn.
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Re: Medical accessories

#13

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Wed May 02, 2018 9:13 am

Rob72 wrote:
Odinvalknir wrote:
2. Do you think it is logical to proceed to give medical first aid to someone whom you have just use your weapon against?
The moment you touch the person whom you have shot, your legal position changes. It will be your burden to prove that their demise was not the result of your malfeasance or incompetence. The DA might take a pass on the question, a civil attorney, regardless of the justifiability of the shoot, has grounds to bring a suit because of the malpractice/malfeasance question. Render aid = call 911.

I have a small personal pack, and a more complete kit in the vehicle.
Do we have a good samaritan law in Texas protects us from liability if we are attempting to render aid to those in need (crash victims, etc)? If we do that would seem to also cover this situation. If we don't, then that would probably impact my decision on rendering aid in all situations, to be honest.
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Re: Medical accessories

#14

Post by PriestTheRunner » Wed May 02, 2018 9:41 am

Soccerdad1995 wrote:
Rob72 wrote:
Odinvalknir wrote:
2. Do you think it is logical to proceed to give medical first aid to someone whom you have just use your weapon against?
The moment you touch the person whom you have shot, your legal position changes. It will be your burden to prove that their demise was not the result of your malfeasance or incompetence. The DA might take a pass on the question, a civil attorney, regardless of the justifiability of the shoot, has grounds to bring a suit because of the malpractice/malfeasance question. Render aid = call 911.

I have a small personal pack, and a more complete kit in the vehicle.
Do we have a good samaritan law in Texas protects us from liability if we are attempting to render aid to those in need (crash victims, etc)? If we do that would seem to also cover this situation. If we don't, then that would probably impact my decision on rendering aid in all situations, to be honest.
Yes, we have a good Samaritan law on the books, that covers quite a bit actually. The real problem is either a overly-aggressive prosecution attorney or the eventual civil suit. Some examples of twisted logic they could use to ruse a jury... :
1. If you rendered aid to a guy that you say was trying to kill you, were you really in fear for your life?...
2. Did you just render aid to try and fix a mistake you made shooting him?....
3. Are you a medical professional? Your 'aid' caused an infection with that QuickClot gauze you inserted into his body, causing him pain. You owe him for that.
4. If you were afraid for your life, and you rendered aid and he recovered, would you fear for your life and shoot him again?...
5. If you didn't want him to die, why did you shoot him three times?...
6. If you didn't want him to die, why did you shoot him in the head?...

Etc, etc.

Hopyfully a wise jury would see through the bull, but things get nasty in the courtroom. No one is your friend in our system. And remember, the jury of your so-called "peers" has been hand selected by the attorneys. They can pick the most liberal, sweetheart, 'all lives matter and are important', imbecilic persons that show up, and you have to work with that jury of 6 (or twelve, depending on civil vs criminal). Though the odds may still be in your favor in a 'good shoot' scenario, are you willing to take those risks?

Personally, I will be calling the ambulance and police, hanging up, checking on my family and holding the threat at gunpoint until law enforcement arrive and control the scene. I would re-conceal when the first LEO car pulls up (just for a bit of added safety). But otherwise, my aid for the guy who was just a lethal threat ends when I hang up the phone calling the ambulance.


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Re: Medical accessories

#15

Post by twomillenium » Wed May 02, 2018 9:53 am

Great thought provoking question! Like mentioned above, I am not sure I would feel safe getting too close to the conscious perv that just tried to take my life and then even if he is unconscious, I would still be concentrating to any accomplices they may or may not have. 911 would definitely be called in all cases (hopefully that suffices the legal obligations) but other than that it would be case by case. (I hope I never have to find out)

I agree with TAM, after giving 911 info and location hang-up and don't answer back unless YOU need to. 911 has no authority over you, they are trained to keep you on line and to listen to what is going on in background not necessarily the caller. In some cases this is good but not all cases. BTW, some 911 systems have the ability to record you before they answer and while their phone is still ringing.

I have first aid bags in each vehicle. A medic friend helped my put together. On one side, it is for common uh-ohs and booboos they have different bandages, gauzes, ointments, instant cold presses, tweezer,scissors, Ammonia inhalants, insect and bee sting applicator, etc..... On the other side (extreme trauma)they have the CAT 6's, Israeli bandages, Quick clot gauze packs, Celox packs, moldable splints, chest seals etc..... Of course each side has alcohol swabs, gloves, tape and the like that would be needed for almost level of injury. It is surprising how much can fit into a seemingly medium size bag. These bags are on the seat of my vehicle anytime I go to a range. On my person at the range I have an IFAK that has a CAT6, Quick Clot, gloves band-aids (seems like several time a year a student will need a bandage on their weak side thumb knuckle, I tell them but some folks only learn by their own experience)
I do try to stay updated with CPR and basic first aid. I probably am not real proficient with all the stuff in the bag as some folks might be, but more than most, but it is there just in case. Always looking to improve.
Last edited by twomillenium on Wed May 02, 2018 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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