HB308

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Re: HB308

#106

Post by louisf1 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:39 pm

Thank you Charles for all that you do to further the cause. You really are appreciated.

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Re: HB308

#107

Post by RoyGBiv » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:29 pm

louisf1 wrote:Thank you Charles for all that you do to further the cause. You really are appreciated.
:iagree: 100%
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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Re: HB308

#108

Post by Tracker » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:00 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Jason K wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
cowhow wrote:Not seeing any movement on this bill. I'm afraid it got lost in all the furor about campus carry and open carry.
Exactly right!! So much political capital was spent on how we can carry (open-carry) as opposed to where we can carry (everywhere) that HB308 will not pass. That's a crying shame as it impacts 840,000+ CHLs in a manner that increases personal safety. Unfortunately, that argument has fallen on deaf ears. Not one life will be saved by open-carry, but how many people will be robbed, assaulted, raped or murdered walking between their cars and a location that is statutorily off-limits? Yeah, I'm bitter, very bitter!

Chas.
. . . .but two issues that got picked up by some very loud, vocal groups working outside of the NRA and TSRA and in the media spotlight have got a pretty good chance of passing in just a couple of legislative sessions.
You could not be more wrong! OCT/OCTC and the other bomb-throwers are the reason we are burning through so much political capital to pass open-carry. It won't pass because of them, but in spite of them. NRA had open-carry in our candidate questionnaire which sends a signal that it is a flagship issue. We started working on open-cary before the end of the 2013 legislative session quietly and effectively laying the foundation for passing it in 2015. We are the reason there was an off-season legislative Interim Study on open-carry. That too is a signal to legislators. (Unfortunately, some of the people who showed up did more damage.) If the open-carry zealots had heeded warnings that their tactics were hurting the issue and stayed out of the media, licensed open-carry would have passed with far less effort. But no, they were far more concerned with staying in the public eye than in passing open-carry. Their leaders committed the cardinal sin of politics, they put their own fame and egos ahead of the issue. Every time they did more damage in the media/public eye, it costs us more political capital to repair that damage.

HB308 (CHL everywhere) is my issue and one I have promoted for 10 years. It is not and never has been an NRA or TSRA issue, so neither organization "has been working on for several sessions behind the scenes quietly" but failing to pass it. It will take a lot of effort and political capital to pass and there's only so much to go around in any given legislative session. Both of your contentions are wrong: 1) OCT has not been able to pass open-carry; and 2) the NRA has not failed to pass "CHL everywhere." I'm sure you and OCT will claim claim otherwise, but if OCT were as effective as you would have us believe, then why is it that so-called "constitutional carry" Bills (SB342/HB195) didn't even get a public hearing? Both Bills were DOA because OCT/OCTC and other bomb-throwers cannot get anything passed. They are now trying to make it appear that they support licensed open-carry so they can falsely claim to have had a victory in 2015.

Chas.
yep.
I would've like to have seen this bill (HB 308) as primary (it incorporates campus carry) and with it as a separate bill OC that could've limited campus carry to CC


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Re: HB308

#109

Post by mr1337 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:37 pm

OCT/OCTC will take credit for the movement on OC and Campus Carry, no doubt. I agree that it will pass in spite of them, not because of them.

They will make the road equally as difficult for unlicensed concealed or open carry.
Keep calm and carry.

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Re: HB308

#110

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:17 pm

Jason K wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Jason K wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
cowhow wrote:Not seeing any movement on this bill. I'm afraid it got lost in all the furor about campus carry and open carry.
Exactly right!! So much political capital was spent on how we can carry (open-carry) as opposed to where we can carry (everywhere) that HB308 will not pass. That's a crying shame as it impacts 840,000+ CHLs in a manner that increases personal safety. Unfortunately, that argument has fallen on deaf ears. Not one life will be saved by open-carry, but how many people will be robbed, assaulted, raped or murdered walking between their cars and a location that is statutorily off-limits? Yeah, I'm bitter, very bitter!

Chas.
. . . .but two issues that got picked up by some very loud, vocal groups working outside of the NRA and TSRA and in the media spotlight have got a pretty good chance of passing in just a couple of legislative sessions.
You could not be more wrong! OCT/OCTC and the other bomb-throwers are the reason we are burning through so much political capital to pass open-carry. It won't pass because of them, but in spite of them. NRA had open-carry in our candidate questionnaire which sends a signal that it is a flagship issue. We started working on open-cary before the end of the 2013 legislative session quietly and effectively laying the foundation for passing it in 2015. We are the reason there was an off-season legislative Interim Study on open-carry. That too is a signal to legislators. (Unfortunately, some of the people who showed up did more damage.) If the open-carry zealots had heeded warnings that their tactics were hurting the issue and stayed out of the media, licensed open-carry would have passed with far less effort. But no, they were far more concerned with staying in the public eye than in passing open-carry. Their leaders committed the cardinal sin of politics, they put their own fame and egos ahead of the issue. Every time they did more damage in the media/public eye, it costs us more political capital to repair that damage.

HB308 (CHL everywhere) is my issue and one I have promoted for 10 years. It is not and never has been an NRA or TSRA issue, so neither organization "has been working on for several sessions behind the scenes quietly" but failing to pass it. It will take a lot of effort and political capital to pass and there's only so much to go around in any given legislative session. Both of your contentions are wrong: 1) OCT has not been able to pass open-carry; and 2) the NRA has not failed to pass "CHL everywhere." I'm sure you and OCT will claim claim otherwise, but if OCT were as effective as you would have us believe, then why is it that so-called "constitutional carry" Bills (SB342/HB195) didn't even get a public hearing? Both Bills were DOA because OCT/OCTC and other bomb-throwers cannot get anything passed. They are now trying to make it appear that they support licensed open-carry so they can falsely claim to have had a victory in 2015.

Chas.
Thanks for the information, Charles. I've learned a lot from your post....

1. TSRA and NRA got on board the OC movement in after the 2013 session....which means they weren't on board with OC or CC prior to that. However, there were OC and CC movements doing work toward those goals in 2011. Why the delay in TSRA and NRA taking up the issue?

2. TSRA and NRA stayed out of the media in 2013 and 2011.....and so did the OC and CC groups. Nothing got passed. The other, non-establishment OC and CC groups then started working to get more media and public attention. Now OC and CC are looking favorable for passage this session. Taking the issue to the public seems to be more successful than staying out of the public eye, doesn't it?

3.
HB308 (CHL everywhere) is my issue and one I have promoted for 10 years. It is not and never has been an NRA or TSRA issue, so neither organization "has been working on for several sessions behind the scenes quietly" but failing to pass it.
Thank you for your efforts on HB308. I'm very disappointed to learn that HB308 is something that TSRA and NRA haven't been supportive of in prior legislative sessions. If it doesn't pass this time, perhaps a new strategy is in order....something more in the public eye. Seems to be effective....

4. I'm not associated with OCT or OCTC in any way. In fact, I agree with you that many of their efforts have hindered the success of OC and CC in the Legislature. Where I disagree is in the fact that organizations like these (as well as Students for Concealed Carry on Campus and Texas Carry) have brought the discussion out of the backrooms and into the forefront of public political discussion. When a newly-elected Governor publically states that he supports OC and will sign the bill that enacts it into law prior to being sworn in, that's a drastic sea-change over prior years. And to say that the public tactics of these groups in getting attention shown to these issues has been detrimental seems to ignore the fact that we're having this discussion about two bills that are on the fast-track to passage. Results matter.....

5. Constitutional Carry? It was a pipe dream this year anyway. Baby steps, people.....baby steps.

Besides.....we have to have something to argue about in two years..... :mrgreen:
OCT/OCTC actions did not help in the slightest; every move they made was wrong. Politics 101 makes it clear that, if you decide to start a public debate, then you'd better do it in a manner that does not insult, scare or alienate the public to whom you are speaking. That's not what OCT/OCTC did by any stretch of the imagination. Again, if you contend OCT/OCTC has been effective in promoting open-carry, then why did the "OCT Bills" not even get a hearing? Why is it that SB342 has only 4 co-sponsors, or HB195 have 9? The NRA/TSRA Bills (SB17 & HB910) have 14 and 75, respectively. So it's not only that OCT failed in it's sole mission of passing unlicensed open-carry, they couldn't even get respectable support for something they had all over the media and in the public eye. Being in the public eye doesn't help when the public is speaking against you and your issue.

They made it clear to "say no, no, no to anything other than HB195!!" Only when it became clear that their tactics were a clear and convincing disaster and that they would not be able to pass unlicensed open-carry, did they engage in a ruse to make it appear that they supported licensed open-carry. They are desperate to declare victory this session, but anyone and everyone in Texas politics knows they failed. They even have a man testifying in the name of OCT on all gun bills and even some totally unrelated to guns so they can claim to have political impact. It's a joke.

Don't even mention OCT and Students for Concealed Carry in the same sentence. SCCC have always been very respectable in their approach, 180 degrees out of phase with OCT.

NRA and TSRA stayed out of the media in 2011 and 2013 because 1) open-carry wasn't on our legislative agendas; and 2) that's not how you get bills passed. OCT's dismal performance this session is clear proof. The NRA/TSRA are going to be successful in passing open-carry on the very first attempt. That's experience, influence and political power. You do what works, not what merely makes noise.

Chas.


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Re: HB308

#111

Post by v7a » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:19 pm

Jason K wrote:2. TSRA and NRA stayed out of the media in 2013 and 2011.....and so did the OC and CC groups. Nothing got passed. The other, non-establishment OC and CC groups then started working to get more media and public attention. Now OC and CC are looking favorable for passage this session. Taking the issue to the public seems to be more successful than staying out of the public eye, doesn't it?
The "issue" that was taken public was unlicensed open carry. And where is unlicensed open carry now? Hasn't even gotten a committee hearing and probably won't this session. Now that's some post hoc ergo propter hoc for you right there.


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Re: HB308

#112

Post by cowhow » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:37 pm

Charles, I want to join the others in saying 'Thanks" for representing us all. Personally, I'd much rather see HB308 passed than either CC or OC. I'm not throwing rocks at either one, just that I see more gains from HB308. I work for a private higher ed institution that given me permission to carry, so CC is moot and I'm yet to come to grips with how often or where I'd open carry. My dad is in an Oklahoma VA center and I'm there quite often and have yet to see anyone OC'ing. It just seems to me that HB308 give us CHL holders more.

OCT/OCTC have created so many hurdles to over come and so much bad press that I"m afraid they have severely damaged, if not outright killed, HB308. So, Charles you're the great political guru tell us how to help get this bill off high center and I'll do what I can. There's too much at stake.

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Re: HB308

#113

Post by Beiruty » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:59 pm

I got an email from NRA-ILA, not even a single word mentioned on HB308.
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Re: HB308

#114

Post by bigblockbill » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:08 pm

I hardly ever see texas in my NRA IlA emails. I'm sure they are helping but it does not appear so from the email sent out.

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Re: HB308

#115

Post by mojo84 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:21 pm

Here's the headline of the email. I would post the entire message if Charles advises it's OK to do so. The entire email is regarding Texas Legislative actions.
Texas: Pro-Second Amendment and Pro-Hunting Legislation On The Move in Austin
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.

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Re: HB308

#116

Post by Beiruty » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:07 pm

It is not a secret it is on facebook and their website.

Here it is:

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2015040 ... -in-austin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: HB308

#117

Post by mojo84 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:09 pm

Beiruty wrote:It is not a secret it is on facebook and their website.

Here it is:

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2015040 ... -in-austin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I was more concerned with copyright than secrets. Thanks for posting the link.
Note: Me sharing a link and information published by others does not constitute my endorsement, agreement, disagreement, my opinion or publishing by me. If you do not like what is contained at a link I share, take it up with the author or publisher of the content.


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Re: HB308

#118

Post by Jason K » Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:39 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Jason K wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Jason K wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
cowhow wrote:Not seeing any movement on this bill. I'm afraid it got lost in all the furor about campus carry and open carry.
Exactly right!! So much political capital was spent on how we can carry (open-carry) as opposed to where we can carry (everywhere) that HB308 will not pass. That's a crying shame as it impacts 840,000+ CHLs in a manner that increases personal safety. Unfortunately, that argument has fallen on deaf ears. Not one life will be saved by open-carry, but how many people will be robbed, assaulted, raped or murdered walking between their cars and a location that is statutorily off-limits? Yeah, I'm bitter, very bitter!

Chas.
. . . .but two issues that got picked up by some very loud, vocal groups working outside of the NRA and TSRA and in the media spotlight have got a pretty good chance of passing in just a couple of legislative sessions.
You could not be more wrong! OCT/OCTC and the other bomb-throwers are the reason we are burning through so much political capital to pass open-carry. It won't pass because of them, but in spite of them. NRA had open-carry in our candidate questionnaire which sends a signal that it is a flagship issue. We started working on open-cary before the end of the 2013 legislative session quietly and effectively laying the foundation for passing it in 2015. We are the reason there was an off-season legislative Interim Study on open-carry. That too is a signal to legislators. (Unfortunately, some of the people who showed up did more damage.) If the open-carry zealots had heeded warnings that their tactics were hurting the issue and stayed out of the media, licensed open-carry would have passed with far less effort. But no, they were far more concerned with staying in the public eye than in passing open-carry. Their leaders committed the cardinal sin of politics, they put their own fame and egos ahead of the issue. Every time they did more damage in the media/public eye, it costs us more political capital to repair that damage.

HB308 (CHL everywhere) is my issue and one I have promoted for 10 years. It is not and never has been an NRA or TSRA issue, so neither organization "has been working on for several sessions behind the scenes quietly" but failing to pass it. It will take a lot of effort and political capital to pass and there's only so much to go around in any given legislative session. Both of your contentions are wrong: 1) OCT has not been able to pass open-carry; and 2) the NRA has not failed to pass "CHL everywhere." I'm sure you and OCT will claim claim otherwise, but if OCT were as effective as you would have us believe, then why is it that so-called "constitutional carry" Bills (SB342/HB195) didn't even get a public hearing? Both Bills were DOA because OCT/OCTC and other bomb-throwers cannot get anything passed. They are now trying to make it appear that they support licensed open-carry so they can falsely claim to have had a victory in 2015.

Chas.
Thanks for the information, Charles. I've learned a lot from your post....

1. TSRA and NRA got on board the OC movement in after the 2013 session....which means they weren't on board with OC or CC prior to that. However, there were OC and CC movements doing work toward those goals in 2011. Why the delay in TSRA and NRA taking up the issue?

2. TSRA and NRA stayed out of the media in 2013 and 2011.....and so did the OC and CC groups. Nothing got passed. The other, non-establishment OC and CC groups then started working to get more media and public attention. Now OC and CC are looking favorable for passage this session. Taking the issue to the public seems to be more successful than staying out of the public eye, doesn't it?

3.
HB308 (CHL everywhere) is my issue and one I have promoted for 10 years. It is not and never has been an NRA or TSRA issue, so neither organization "has been working on for several sessions behind the scenes quietly" but failing to pass it.
Thank you for your efforts on HB308. I'm very disappointed to learn that HB308 is something that TSRA and NRA haven't been supportive of in prior legislative sessions. If it doesn't pass this time, perhaps a new strategy is in order....something more in the public eye. Seems to be effective....

4. I'm not associated with OCT or OCTC in any way. In fact, I agree with you that many of their efforts have hindered the success of OC and CC in the Legislature. Where I disagree is in the fact that organizations like these (as well as Students for Concealed Carry on Campus and Texas Carry) have brought the discussion out of the backrooms and into the forefront of public political discussion. When a newly-elected Governor publically states that he supports OC and will sign the bill that enacts it into law prior to being sworn in, that's a drastic sea-change over prior years. And to say that the public tactics of these groups in getting attention shown to these issues has been detrimental seems to ignore the fact that we're having this discussion about two bills that are on the fast-track to passage. Results matter.....

5. Constitutional Carry? It was a pipe dream this year anyway. Baby steps, people.....baby steps.

Besides.....we have to have something to argue about in two years..... :mrgreen:
OCT/OCTC actions did not help in the slightest; every move they made was wrong. Politics 101 makes it clear that, if you decide to start a public debate, then you'd better do it in a manner that does not insult, scare or alienate the public to whom you are speaking. That's not what OCT/OCTC did by any stretch of the imagination. Again, if you contend OCT/OCTC has been effective in promoting open-carry, then why did the "OCT Bills" not even get a hearing? Why is it that SB342 has only 4 co-sponsors, or HB195 have 9? The NRA/TSRA Bills (SB17 & HB910) have 14 and 75, respectively. So it's not only that OCT failed in it's sole mission of passing unlicensed open-carry, they couldn't even get respectable support for something they had all over the media and in the public eye. Being in the public eye doesn't help when the public is speaking against you and your issue.

They made it clear to "say no, no, no to anything other than HB195!!" Only when it became clear that their tactics were a clear and convincing disaster and that they would not be able to pass unlicensed open-carry, did they engage in a ruse to make it appear that they supported licensed open-carry. They are desperate to declare victory this session, but anyone and everyone in Texas politics knows they failed. They even have a man testifying in the name of OCT on all gun bills and even some totally unrelated to guns so they can claim to have political impact. It's a joke.

Don't even mention OCT and Students for Concealed Carry in the same sentence. SCCC have always been very respectable in their approach, 180 degrees out of phase with OCT.

NRA and TSRA stayed out of the media in 2011 and 2013 because 1) open-carry wasn't on our legislative agendas; and 2) that's not how you get bills passed. OCT's dismal performance this session is clear proof. The NRA/TSRA are going to be successful in passing open-carry on the very first attempt. That's experience, influence and political power. You do what works, not what merely makes noise.

Chas.

Maybe you and I define "success" differently....I stated that the non-establishment OC & CC groups were successful in getting the public and media discussion going. Denying that fact is hard to do....especially when you admitted it yourself. NRA and TSRA lost a great opportunity in 2011 and 2013 to start the discussion in a positive way. The other groups didn't squander the opportunity...even if a lot of those opportunities turned into blunders. I'd rather have seen NRA and TSRA bringing OC and CC in the public eye in those years. But, to paraphrase most Hollywood talent agents, the only thing worse than bad publicity is no publicity at all. And another paraphrase.....better to try and fail than never to try at all.

One good thing.....NRA is doing a bang-up job on using the Internet and "new media" to get the message out in the right way. I really like the way they're using NRA FREESTYLE & YOUTUBE to put the issues and gun owners out in a positive light. I hope the NRA's voice gets loud enough to drown out the Grishams and Watkinses. Nothing in this world gets done without public discussion anymore.....I'm glad to see the NRA speaking up.

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Re: HB308

#119

Post by G.A. Heath » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:14 am

Jason K wrote: Maybe you and I define "success" differently....I stated that the non-establishment OC & CC groups were successful in getting the public and media discussion going. Denying that fact is hard to do....especially when you admitted it yourself. NRA and TSRA lost a great opportunity in 2011 and 2013 to start the discussion in a positive way. The other groups didn't squander the opportunity...even if a lot of those opportunities turned into blunders. I'd rather have seen NRA and TSRA bringing OC and CC in the public eye in those years. But, to paraphrase most Hollywood talent agents, the only thing worse than bad publicity is no publicity at all. And another paraphrase.....better to try and fail than never to try at all.

One good thing.....NRA is doing a bang-up job on using the Internet and "new media" to get the message out in the right way. I really like the way they're using NRA FREESTYLE & YOUTUBE to put the issues and gun owners out in a positive light. I hope the NRA's voice gets loud enough to drown out the Grishams and Watkinses. Nothing in this world gets done without public discussion anymore.....I'm glad to see the NRA speaking up.
The NRA and TSRA have done quite a bit for CC in the previous sessions. If it were not for them Campus Carry would not have made it as far as it did in the past. As far as Open Carry goes I know for a FACT that the TSRA rep (Alice Tripp) testified in support of OC in prior sessions even while she and anyone associated with the TSRA were being accused of trying to kill the bill. Remember the Interim Senate Hearing about Open Carry? It was the NRA and TSRA's efforts that got that hearing, they could have had a hearing on Campus Carry again or maybe one on removing off limits locations for CHLs but they asked for Open Carry. The TSRA and the NRA have not squandered any opportunity, what they have done is applied tried and true methods of getting legislation passed only to find themselves having to undo damage caused by folks on "our side" who feel a need to use "In Your Face" tactics. When the legislature started the NRA and TSRA reps got real busy and real quite because they are doing their best to get results, not sound bites. When passing controversial bills you have to budget your time and resources. Getting legislation passed often means you are too busy actually getting results for you to make statements or media appearances.
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Re: HB308

#120

Post by C-dub » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:25 am

Jason K wrote:Maybe you and I define "success" differently....I stated that the non-establishment OC & CC groups were successful in getting the public and media discussion going. Denying that fact is hard to do....especially when you admitted it yourself. NRA and TSRA lost a great opportunity in 2011 and 2013 to start the discussion in a positive way. The other groups didn't squander the opportunity...even if a lot of those opportunities turned into blunders. I'd rather have seen NRA and TSRA bringing OC and CC in the public eye in those years. But, to paraphrase most Hollywood talent agents, the only thing worse than bad publicity is no publicity at all. And another paraphrase.....better to try and fail than never to try at all.

One good thing.....NRA is doing a bang-up job on using the Internet and "new media" to get the message out in the right way. I really like the way they're using NRA FREESTYLE & YOUTUBE to put the issues and gun owners out in a positive light. I hope the NRA's voice gets loud enough to drown out the Grishams and Watkinses. Nothing in this world gets done without public discussion anymore.....I'm glad to see the NRA speaking up.
To try and fail rather than not try at all may be good for some things, but horrible for others. Are you implying that the blunders that caused people to view those that wanted to open carry as nuts was a good thing?

For the NRA and TSRA to have focused on OC in previous years would have meant they could not focus on more pressing gun rights that effect far more people.
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