Call-To-Action: HB910

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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#256

Post by CWOOD » Fri May 29, 2015 11:09 pm

nightmare69, the bill passed after the amendment you inquired about was stripped from the bill.

I think it is generally agreed that LEOs should not be stopping someone without some reasonable suspicion of unlawful conduct, however, in the real world we know that this may potentially happen in jurisdictions strongly anti2A.

As I understand it, the plan is that getting the basic law in place is most important. If, by the time the next session comes around, there are significant numbers of cases where LEOs have used stops to check ID as a harrassment tool, then there can be adjustments made at that time. In the mean time, the vast majority of us who choose to OC will have been able to do so without undue interference because the vast majority of LEOs will honor the law and recognize the need for reasonable suspicion before bothering law abiding citizens
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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#257

Post by nightmare69 » Fri May 29, 2015 11:28 pm

Thanks for the replies, and Joe, I've been on duty for the past 15hrs. Cut me a bit of slack as I'm drained both mentally and physically.
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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#258

Post by joe817 » Fri May 29, 2015 11:35 pm

nightmare69 wrote:Thanks for the replies, and Joe, I've been on duty for the past 15hrs. Cut me a bit of slack as I'm drained both mentally and physically.
My apologies, my friend. I realized that after I went on my tiraid. I have the utmost respect for you and your brothers in law enforcement. Thank you for doing what you do.

I am thrilled beyond words that those amendments were stripped from the bill.....not needed as laws currently in place to enforce what the amendments tried to reinforce. Not needed, IMO.
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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#259

Post by dale blanker » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:49 pm

I can see open carry during some special events but how many would want to open carry most of the time?
It seems to me that some disadvantages of open carry are:
1. might make lots of folks uncomfortable
2.LEO would probably give more attention if not a license check hassle. As someone noted a reason to stop and check can nearly always be found.
3. might actually make the open carrier more of a target for some low life looking for something value to rip off. It might also give the impression a large sum of money is on hand.

Is it worth it?
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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#260

Post by K.Mooneyham » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:24 am

dale blanker wrote:I can see open carry during some special events but how many would want to open carry most of the time?
It seems to me that some disadvantages of open carry are:
1. might make lots of folks uncomfortable
2.LEO would probably give more attention if not a license check hassle. As someone noted a reason to stop and check can nearly always be found.
3. might actually make the open carrier more of a target for some low life looking for something value to rip off. It might also give the impression a large sum of money is on hand.

Is it worth it?
Responding to your number 3 item, I will simply ask this: if that is true, why aren't we hearing that sort of thing in the news every day from other states that have open carry? It's a well-known fact that the bulk of the mass news media is anti-firearm and anti-self defense, so if people open carrying handguns were being targeted in other states, you can bet the mass media would have it on blast...except I haven't really seen anything on that. Sorry, but I'm just not buying that one.

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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#261

Post by jmra » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:15 am

K.Mooneyham wrote:
dale blanker wrote:I can see open carry during some special events but how many would want to open carry most of the time?
It seems to me that some disadvantages of open carry are:
1. might make lots of folks uncomfortable
2.LEO would probably give more attention if not a license check hassle. As someone noted a reason to stop and check can nearly always be found.
3. might actually make the open carrier more of a target for some low life looking for something value to rip off. It might also give the impression a large sum of money is on hand.

Is it worth it?
Responding to your number 3 item, I will simply ask this: if that is true, why aren't we hearing that sort of thing in the news every day from other states that have open carry? It's a well-known fact that the bulk of the mass news media is anti-firearm and anti-self defense, so if people open carrying handguns were being targeted in other states, you can bet the mass media would have it on blast...except I haven't really seen anything on that. Sorry, but I'm just not buying that one.
One of the reasons we don't hear about it everyday from other states is because there are so few people in other states that OC. I spent most of my life in an OC state and don't recall seeing a single non LEO OC. It is definately not being done in highly populated areas.
OC is so rare in other states that I would even be willing to bet that if you did random polling the results would show that the vast majority of residents in OC states have no idea OC is even legal.
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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#262

Post by harrycallahan » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:32 am

In 204 days 17 hours and 32 minutes we will find out.
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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#263

Post by jmra » Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:52 am

harrycallahan wrote:In 204 days 17 hours and 32 minutes we will find out.
I doubt we will discover much on Jan 1. It will take some time to figure out how common place OC will become in TX. IMHO after the dust settles the average Joe will rarely see OC. With only about 3% of the population licensed to carry and only about half that number carrying on a regular basis and only a fraction of that number willing to OC it simply isn't going to be that big a deal.
When it's all said and done we will have spent a great amount of political capital on principle with little practical life application.
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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#264

Post by harrycallahan » Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:34 am

jmra wrote:
harrycallahan wrote:In 204 days 17 hours and 32 minutes we will find out.
I doubt we will discover much on Jan 1. It will take some time to figure out how common place OC will become in TX. IMHO after the dust settles the average Joe will rarely see OC. With only about 3% of the population licensed to carry and only about half that number carrying on a regular basis and only a fraction of that number willing to OC it simply isn't going to be that big a deal.
When it's all said and done we will have spent a great amount of political capital on principle with little practical life application.
I can't dispute your math as it relates to OC. However, I believe that Open Carry's importance should not be measured by the methods you've prescribed. To do so actually subscribes to the anti-2A logic, to a point. I agree the percentages are small at this time, but that number will only grow. A powerful, voting group of people that are 800,000 strong is nothing to dismiss. That is nearly a million households, some with children and all with family and friends that are being exposed to lawful citizens exercising their 2A rights. There is no doubt much political capital were spent on this. But on whose side? Why? The anti-2A philosophy understands this and that is why they fought as hard as they did against Open Carry. Make no mistake, the campaign that they mounted against Open Carry was on many fronts and was in the form of in your face attacks, fronts, moles and misinformation. I have my views on Open Carry and so do all of us. But if you want to really know how important something actually is, just take a look at what the opposition is doing. They almost killed it by agreeing with it! I am referring to the Dutton/Huffines amendment. That tactic was genius and it was executed right under our nose.
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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#265

Post by jmra » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:04 am

harrycallahan wrote:
jmra wrote:
harrycallahan wrote:In 204 days 17 hours and 32 minutes we will find out.
I doubt we will discover much on Jan 1. It will take some time to figure out how common place OC will become in TX. IMHO after the dust settles the average Joe will rarely see OC. With only about 3% of the population licensed to carry and only about half that number carrying on a regular basis and only a fraction of that number willing to OC it simply isn't going to be that big a deal.
When it's all said and done we will have spent a great amount of political capital on principle with little practical life application.
I can't dispute your math as it relates to OC. However, I believe that Open Carry's importance should not be measured by the methods you've prescribed. To do so actually subscribes to the anti-2A logic, to a point. I agree the percentages are small at this time, but that number will only grow. A powerful, voting group of people that are 800,000 strong is nothing to dismiss. That is nearly a million households, some with children and all with family and friends that are being exposed to lawful citizens exercising their 2A rights. There is no doubt much political capital were spent on this. But on whose side? Why? The anti-2A philosophy understands this and that is why they fought as hard as they did against Open Carry. Make no mistake, the campaign that they mounted against Open Carry was on many fronts and was in the form of in your face attacks, fronts, moles and misinformation. I have my views on Open Carry and so do all of us. But if you want to really know how important something actually is, just take a look at what the opposition is doing. They almost killed it by agreeing with it! I am referring to the Dutton/Huffines amendment. That tactic was genius and it was executed right under our nose.
The flaw in your logic is that all 800,000 supported spending the political capital to pass OC - they didn't.
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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#266

Post by mojo84 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:08 am

I know some CHL holders that didn't even know open carry was being seriously considered by the legislature. When I told them it was, they indicated they were against it. I also know some non-chl's that are for it. It's hard to pinpoint the exact level of support an issue receives. Just having a license to carry isn't a true indicator. JMHO


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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#267

Post by K.Mooneyham » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:38 am

jmra wrote:
K.Mooneyham wrote:
dale blanker wrote:I can see open carry during some special events but how many would want to open carry most of the time?
It seems to me that some disadvantages of open carry are:
1. might make lots of folks uncomfortable
2.LEO would probably give more attention if not a license check hassle. As someone noted a reason to stop and check can nearly always be found.
3. might actually make the open carrier more of a target for some low life looking for something value to rip off. It might also give the impression a large sum of money is on hand.

Is it worth it?
Responding to your number 3 item, I will simply ask this: if that is true, why aren't we hearing that sort of thing in the news every day from other states that have open carry? It's a well-known fact that the bulk of the mass news media is anti-firearm and anti-self defense, so if people open carrying handguns were being targeted in other states, you can bet the mass media would have it on blast...except I haven't really seen anything on that. Sorry, but I'm just not buying that one.
One of the reasons we don't hear about it everyday from other states is because there are so few people in other states that OC. I spent most of my life in an OC state and don't recall seeing a single non LEO OC. It is definately not being done in highly populated areas.
OC is so rare in other states that I would even be willing to bet that if you did random polling the results would show that the vast majority of residents in OC states have no idea OC is even legal.
I think you misunderstand how most people will open carry. If you mean they won't open carry by sticking a highly polished barbeque gun in a flashy hand-tooled rig and walk around downtown Austin with it on (just making a point here), then you are most likely correct. But I predict a lot of CHLers will OC by having the firearm partially visible at points during their carry day. I know that I am now going to go buy an OWB holster. I wear long shirts un-tucked, and did so before ever getting a CHL. I still intend on dressing like that and my carry pistol will still be covered to the vast majority of observers. But, despite how the law was re-written last session, I never had the confidence to carry OWB, just in case (I remember the incident that a former forum member suffered through); now I will. And I think that others will be doing the same. Call it semi-open carry if you like but I think that is how this will play out, and how it will help.

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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#268

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:47 am

Of all of the gun owners I talk to, and they are legion, those who said they would never carry openly outnumbered those who will by a very wide margin. Precious few have told me they won't open-carry, but that they supported the bill on principal. I don't see opposition to open-carry as anti-Second Amendment; that's the all-or-nothing approach that is counterproductive. Just because an "organization" or small number of people claim that the sanctity of the Second Amendment stands or falls on the issue of open-carry doesn't make it so. In my view, claiming that any gun owners who oppose or have concerns about open-carry are anti-gun or taking an anti-Second Amendment stand is as bad as the race-baiters claiming every interaction between a white LEO and a black person is born of racism. Claiming evil intent or motivation where none exists is flat wrong, regardless of the setting. I've seen some argue that supporting open-carry is anti-Second Amendment because of the potential anti-gun backlash. I think that position also goes too far, but we must remember open-carry was offered as an amendment to SB60 in 1995 because those offering it correctly believed it would have doomed the carrying of self-defense handguns by citizens to failure in the 1997 legislative session.

In almost 40 years of traveling all over the country, I cannot recall seeing any non-LEO carrying a handgun openly, unless we were hunting. This includes the so-called "Gold Standard" State of Virginia that I've gone to at least three times a year for fourteen years. Open-carry this session was our legislative Hamburger Hill. We won, but at what cost and what did we truly gain for millions of Texans? As I've said many times before, I want to make a difference, not merely a point.

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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#269

Post by TXBO » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:30 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
In almost 40 years of traveling all over the country, I cannot recall seeing any non-LEO carrying a handgun openly, unless we were hunting. This includes the so-called "Gold Standard" State of Virginia that I've gone to at least three times a year for fourteen years. Open-carry this session was our legislative Hamburger Hill. We won, but at what cost and what did we truly gain for millions of Texans? As I've said many times before, I want to make a difference, not merely a point.

Chas.
I lived in Arizona from 1995 through 2000. At that time, open carry was unlicensed and concealed carry was licensed. Even with unlicensed open carry, I found it very rare to see an openly carried gun. I'll also point out that I spent at least two nights a week at some sort of action pistol match. Even frequenting eating joints with shooters after matches, open carry was very rare.

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Re: Call-To-Action: HB910

#270

Post by SA_Steve » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:41 am

After living in Atlanta, GA for the past 12 years and participating in the local forums I can tell you that there is a very vocal group of OC'ers that live on the forums and that drown out any CCer's concerns about OC'ing.

Don't ever say 'cc tactical advantage', risk of being first to be shot by bad guy, or anything else that points to superiority of cc or you will be drowned out fast and the moderators will reinforce the OC'ers, some will wisely lock the thread since they know what the discussion leads to and they don't want to offend the OC'ers who make up the core senior membership.

There's something about high post count folks who live all day on the forums, always ready to jump on someone with a low post count, someone not in the clique, or just take the opportunity to talk tough. Mostly shut-ins or other friendless folks with no one to listen to them. TGT is a great TX example. I've got so many folks blocked over there that there is not much to read. Some of the critical stuff regarding Chas still makes it through.

In twelve years in Atlanta I only saw 3 OC'ers, they all looked like cop-wannabes to me (short hair, head on a swivel, protecting the public...). I read a lot of postings by OC'ers who could not wait to go to the mall and then report back on the forums.

Their reasons are 'protect the public', 'educate the public', 'exercise my right' (in-your-face if necessary).

I predict OC will be a non-event in real life TX unless some of the wacko open carry rifle nuts decide to make more news, all harmful to us slightly more restrained gun nuts.
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