Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

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Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#1

Post by v7a » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:59 pm

Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law
Texas isn't Oklahoma.

That's true for barbecue. That's true for country music. And it's true, law enforcement and legal experts say, for open carry, the new law that will let licensed gun owners in Texas publicly tote their pistols come January.

State legislators here touted the Sooner State's open carry law as the exemplar, noting there have been no major problems in its implementation in the last few years.

But this is Texas. It's bigger, its cities are more populous than most of the other 45 states that allow some type of open carry and it has witnessed an active, aggressive political movement supportive of the new law that has clashed with local police.

With those factors in mind, police and the lawyers who train them said they cannot predict how Texas' open carry law will be enforced or received. What they do know is the greatest challenges likely will be with how law enforcement agencies interpret the law.

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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

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Post by C-dub » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:03 pm

That all sounds like a pretty fair assessment. It might be a problem and it might not. The biggest impact will be decided in how LE departments react.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

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Post by WildBill » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:34 pm

C-dub wrote:That all sounds like a pretty fair assessment. It might be a problem and it might not. The biggest impact will be decided in how LE departments react.
IMO it will be more about how the Open Carriers act. :tiphat:
Last edited by WildBill on Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#4

Post by safety1 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:37 pm

They (cities and counties) should hope that they interpret it as the law is written, unless they
have very deep pockets.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#5

Post by Oldgringo » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:00 pm

I still say, by the time that opening weekend is over, observed/practiced OC will be as scarce as hen's teeth.

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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#6

Post by jmra » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:51 pm

Oldgringo wrote:I still say, by the time that opening weekend is over, observed/practiced OC will be as scarce as hen's teeth.
:iagree:
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#7

Post by ELB » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:22 pm

Oh please. 44 other states went first, but this time it will be different. Only Texas has "aggressive" open carrier supporters. Some people don't get around much...or won't let go of their personal bogeymen.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#8

Post by Jeff B. » Sat Jun 13, 2015 7:49 pm

Good thread... many excellent points. I too think that the frequency of open carry will decline after an initial splash. Personally, I think that we should have un-licensed open carry like many, many other states do, but I'm happy to see the progress that was made. We've taken step forward in gun rights. That in itself is a big thing, IMO.

It will be interesting to see how the various jurisdictions and agencies deal with OC. I hope anyone that receives unwarranted attention remains calm, cool and collected, allowing de-escalating any situation and giving the anti's grist for their propaganda mill. I'm a believer that differences with the law need to be settled after the fact through administrative and possibly civil avenues. Considering that the vast majority of the law officers out there are A-OK, I'm hoping we don't see any serious confrontations or bad press for OC.

Jeff B.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

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Post by Jumping Frog » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:27 pm

I will open carry regularly in Houston.

I used to open carry regularly before moving to Texas. Never had any problems. Don't expect them here either.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

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Post by jmra » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:50 pm

Jeff B. wrote:Good thread... many excellent points. I too think that the frequency of open carry will decline after an initial splash. Personally, I think that we should have un-licensed open carry like many, many other states do, but I'm happy to see the progress that was made. We've taken step forward in gun rights. That in itself is a big thing, IMO.

It will be interesting to see how the various jurisdictions and agencies deal with OC. I hope anyone that receives unwarranted attention remains calm, cool and collected, allowing de-escalating any situation and giving the anti's grist for their propaganda mill. I'm a believer that differences with the law need to be settled after the fact through administrative and possibly civil avenues. Considering that the vast majority of the law officers out there are A-OK, I'm hoping we don't see any serious confrontations or bad press for OC.

Jeff B.
"Many, many" other states have unlicensed OC? Can you list them?
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#11

Post by Jeff B. » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:01 pm

jmra wrote:
Jeff B. wrote:Good thread... many excellent points. I too think that the frequency of open carry will decline after an initial splash. Personally, I think that we should have un-licensed open carry like many, many other states do, but I'm happy to see the progress that was made. We've taken step forward in gun rights. That in itself is a big thing, IMO.

It will be interesting to see how the various jurisdictions and agencies deal with OC. I hope anyone that receives unwarranted attention remains calm, cool and collected, allowing de-escalating any situation and giving the anti's grist for their propaganda mill. I'm a believer that differences with the law need to be settled after the fact through administrative and possibly civil avenues. Considering that the vast majority of the law officers out there are A-OK, I'm hoping we don't see any serious confrontations or bad press for OC.

Jeff B.
"Many, many" other states have unlicensed OC? Can you list them?
From Wikipedia (OK, not a prefect source, but OK for a quick reply);

Today in the United States, the laws vary from state to state regarding open carry of firearms. The categories are defined as follows:

Permissive open carry states A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They do not prohibit open carry for all non-prohibited citizens and do not require a permit or license to open carry. Open carry is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle. It must be noted that while open carry may be legal in such jurisdictions per se, persons openly carrying firearms may be detained and cited by law enforcement officials for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace in certain locations and circumstances where openly carrying could cause public alarm.

Licensed open carry states A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They permit open carry of a handgun to all non-prohibited citizens once they have been issued a permit or license. Open carry of a handgun is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle. In practice however, some of these states that have May-Issue licensing laws can be regarded as Non-Permissive for open carry, as issuing authorities rarely or never grant licenses to ordinary citizens.

Anomalous open carry states The legality of open carry varies within state, based on local policies. In such states, some local jurisdictions may permit open carry while others may impose varying degrees of restrictions or prohibit open carry entirely.

Non-permissive open carry states In these states, open carry of a handgun is not lawful, or is only lawful under such a limited set of circumstances that public carry is effectively prohibited. Such limited circumstances may include when hunting, or while traveling to/from hunting locations, while on property controlled by the person carrying, or for lawful self-defense. Additionally, some states with May-Issue licensing laws are Non-Permissive when issuing authorities are highly restrictive in the issuance of licenses allowing open carry.

Rural open carry states In these states, open carry is generally prohibited, except in unincorporated areas of counties where population densities are below statutorily-defined thresholds, and local authorities have enacted legislation to not prohibit open carry in such jurisdictions (California). As such, these states are also regarded as Anomalous open carry states.

Permissive States: AL, AK, AZ, CO, DE, ID, KS, KY, LA, ME, MI, MS, MT, NV, NM, NC, OH, SD, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY.

24, maybe not many, many, but alot!

Regards,

Jeff B.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#12

Post by jmra » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:10 pm

Jeff B. wrote:
jmra wrote:
Jeff B. wrote:Good thread... many excellent points. I too think that the frequency of open carry will decline after an initial splash. Personally, I think that we should have un-licensed open carry like many, many other states do, but I'm happy to see the progress that was made. We've taken step forward in gun rights. That in itself is a big thing, IMO.

It will be interesting to see how the various jurisdictions and agencies deal with OC. I hope anyone that receives unwarranted attention remains calm, cool and collected, allowing de-escalating any situation and giving the anti's grist for their propaganda mill. I'm a believer that differences with the law need to be settled after the fact through administrative and possibly civil avenues. Considering that the vast majority of the law officers out there are A-OK, I'm hoping we don't see any serious confrontations or bad press for OC.

Jeff B.
"Many, many" other states have unlicensed OC? Can you list them?
From Wikipedia (OK, not a prefect source, but OK for a quick reply);

Today in the United States, the laws vary from state to state regarding open carry of firearms. The categories are defined as follows:

Permissive open carry states A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They do not prohibit open carry for all non-prohibited citizens and do not require a permit or license to open carry. Open carry is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle. It must be noted that while open carry may be legal in such jurisdictions per se, persons openly carrying firearms may be detained and cited by law enforcement officials for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace in certain locations and circumstances where openly carrying could cause public alarm.

Licensed open carry states A state has passed full preemption of all firearms laws. They permit open carry of a handgun to all non-prohibited citizens once they have been issued a permit or license. Open carry of a handgun is lawful on foot and in a motor vehicle. In practice however, some of these states that have May-Issue licensing laws can be regarded as Non-Permissive for open carry, as issuing authorities rarely or never grant licenses to ordinary citizens.

Anomalous open carry states The legality of open carry varies within state, based on local policies. In such states, some local jurisdictions may permit open carry while others may impose varying degrees of restrictions or prohibit open carry entirely.

Non-permissive open carry states In these states, open carry of a handgun is not lawful, or is only lawful under such a limited set of circumstances that public carry is effectively prohibited. Such limited circumstances may include when hunting, or while traveling to/from hunting locations, while on property controlled by the person carrying, or for lawful self-defense. Additionally, some states with May-Issue licensing laws are Non-Permissive when issuing authorities are highly restrictive in the issuance of licenses allowing open carry.

Rural open carry states In these states, open carry is generally prohibited, except in unincorporated areas of counties where population densities are below statutorily-defined thresholds, and local authorities have enacted legislation to not prohibit open carry in such jurisdictions (California). As such, these states are also regarded as Anomalous open carry states.

Permissive States: AL, AK, AZ, CO, DE, ID, KS, KY, LA, ME, MI, MS, MT, NV, NM, NC, OH, SD, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY.

24, maybe not many, many, but alot!

Regards,

Jeff B.
Looking at actual state laws I count 20, however 11 of those states allow local governments to restrict open carry or their open carry has restrictions that make OC impractical.
So that leaves about 9 states where you can walk the streets anywhere in the state OCing unlicensed.
BTW, La is listed as an OC state. I lived there almost 4 decades and never saw a single person OC. Just for kicks visit New Orleans with a gun strapped to your hip and see how many teeth you leave in the concrete.
And you can list CO unless you are in Denver - that would be illegal.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#13

Post by jimlongley » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:24 pm

v7a wrote:Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law
Texas isn't Oklahoma.

That's true for barbecue. That's true for country music. And it's true, law enforcement and legal experts say, for open carry, the new law that will let licensed gun owners in Texas publicly tote their pistols come January.

State legislators here touted the Sooner State's open carry law as the exemplar, noting there have been no major problems in its implementation in the last few years.

But this is Texas. It's bigger, its cities are more populous than most of the other 45 states that allow some type of open carry and it has witnessed an active, aggressive political movement supportive of the new law that has clashed with local police.

With those factors in mind, police and the lawyers who train them said they cannot predict how Texas' open carry law will be enforced or received. What they do know is the greatest challenges likely will be with how law enforcement agencies interpret the law.
More "Chicken Little" fear mongering. I wonder if they think the law will be rescinded because they are running around tearing their hair and such. They have, and insisted on, until 01/01/16 to figure out what little needs to be figured out. If the enforcers and the trainers of the enforcers can't figure out how it will be enforced, or received, then I mourn for the state of our State. And the letter of the law leaves little for interpretation, although I think the "no stop" amendments should have been left in, just to ensure that there was no question.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#14

Post by oljames3 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 9:43 pm

Jumping Frog wrote:I will open carry regularly in Houston.

I used to open carry regularly before moving to Texas. Never had any problems. Don't expect them here either.
I will OC in Elgin, Austin, and anywhere else I legally can. This is my preferred mode. YMMV.
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Re: Police, lawyers decry 'unknowns' of open carry law

#15

Post by K.Mooneyham » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:00 pm

So, reading that excerpt from the article, I saw this: ...blah, blah, blah, blood will run in the streets, blah, blah, blah..." And much like what was said of concealed carry, it will all likely turn out to be liberal hand-wringing and nothing more than a tempest in a teapot.

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