HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

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ELB
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#151

Post by ELB » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:52 am

PENAL CODE
TITLE 1. INTRODUCTORY PROVISIONS
CHAPTER 2. BURDEN OF PROOF

Sec. 2.03. DEFENSE. (a) A defense to prosecution for an offense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is a defense to prosecution . . . ."

(b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the existence of a defense in the accusation charging commission of the offense.

(c) The issue of the existence of a defense is not submitted to the jury unless evidence is admitted supporting the defense.

(d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.

(e) A ground of defense in a penal law that is not plainly labeled in accordance with this chapter has the procedural and evidentiary consequences of a defense.
So tell me who decides the underlined parts, i.e. who decides whether evidence of VESP is submitted to a jury? I think you have to convince the judge first.

I would be happy to be wrong, but I don't think the legally has to prove anything other than the elements of the offense.

I note this post from Mr. Cotton:
http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 41#p176583

An excerpt, with my emphasis added :
..."Defense to prosecution" and "does not apply" are the same thing and you can be arrested. You will have to prove your "defense" at trial. As a practical matter, most prosecutors will treat "does not apply" like they do exceptions, but they are not required to do so.
I don't believe the prosecution has to prove you the defendant was a VESP. I believe the defendant has to prove, at least to the degree that raises reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury, that he is a VESP.
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#152

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:11 am

ELB wrote:
PENAL CODE
TITLE 1. INTRODUCTORY PROVISIONS
CHAPTER 2. BURDEN OF PROOF

Sec. 2.03. DEFENSE. (a) A defense to prosecution for an offense in this code is so labeled by the phrase: "It is a defense to prosecution . . . ."

(b) The prosecuting attorney is not required to negate the existence of a defense in the accusation charging commission of the offense.

(c) The issue of the existence of a defense is not submitted to the jury unless evidence is admitted supporting the defense.

(d) If the issue of the existence of a defense is submitted to the jury, the court shall charge that a reasonable doubt on the issue requires that the defendant be acquitted.

(e) A ground of defense in a penal law that is not plainly labeled in accordance with this chapter has the procedural and evidentiary consequences of a defense.
So tell me who decides the underlined parts, i.e. who decides whether evidence of VESP is submitted to a jury? I think you have to convince the judge first.

I would be happy to be wrong, but I don't think the legally has to prove anything other than the elements of the offense.

I note this post from Mr. Cotton:
http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic. ... 41#p176583
The relevant law says:
SECTION 10. Section 46.01, Penal Code, is amended by adding Subdivision (18) to read as follows:
(18) "Volunteer emergency services personnel" includes a volunteer firefighter, an emergency medical services volunteer as defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, and any individual who, as a volunteer, provides services for the benefit of the general public during emergency situations.
So, in the highly unlikely event that I am in court facing a charge of violating 30.06, I would assert that I am, in fact, willing and able to provide services for the benefit of the general public during emergency situations. A prosecutor could present evidence that I was not, in fact, willing and able to "provide services for the benefit of the general public during emergency situations". Or I guess they could use an extremely convincing line of argument by saying "nah uh, no you're not!!!". In that case, I would point out that I have a Red Cross card, and a history of doing things like checking on my neighbors after the last hurricane that hit Houston back in 2008 (I believe), and various winter related power outages when I lived in the Northwest. During these times I have provided folks with food and water and let them stay in my home overnight when I had power and they did not. I have also provided folks with money for food and gas when I believed that they faced a personal emergency situation, and have stopped to helped others change a tire when they were in an emergency situation on the side of the road. Moreover, I can present witnesses who will testify to all of this, if necessary. I am not a legal expert, but I think I'll be OK. And worst case, I'll pay my $200.

Personally I believe that a mere sign should not carry any potential criminal penalties for anyone. But, if this new law has the side benefit of getting more folks to volunteer and to help others, that is not a bad thing, IMHO.
Ding dong, the witch is dead


TreyHouston
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#153

Post by TreyHouston » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:23 pm

ELB wrote:
TexasJohnBoy wrote: ...In general, what is required to become a volunteer fire fighter? I live out in the county and before this became a thing I was playing with the idea of volunteering for the VFD closest to me. I wonder if VFD would be more rewarding/impactful than CERT?
I'm sure VFDs vary, but in mine: not everyone in the VFD is a firefighter, but we need everyone we can get. We have two basic kinds of firefighters: structural and wildland. Structural firefighters deal with building/house fires, vehicle fires, and general "rescue". Wildland firefighters deal with well, wildland fires: grass, forest, brush. Different equipment and training for each, although there is some overlap. At least with us you could do one or the other. We also do medical first responder calls (in fact, that is by far the bulk of our calls). Again, with us, if that is all you wanted to do, didn't want to fight fires, that's OK. We also need people to support the firefighters at the scene with "rehab" or rehabilitation -- that means providing food and water and shelter to the firefighters when they are not actually in fighting the fire.

Most of our members train to do all three major mission areas, structural, wildland, and medical responder, and we have some others that focus on just the rehabilitation part. We have a few more that just come out for things like fundraising, paperwork, station renovation.

As others noted, the basics are: Show up, have a clean criminal record, be a team player, attend training for whatever your role is... and show up.

So if you are interested go visit your local VFD and see how they handle things.

TXSG (Texas State Guard) works the same way! 1 weekend a month, no PT, and learn how to set up shelters, first responders aid, and show up consistently. Houston area meets at ellington or rosenburg. Its a lot of fun ! 95% of being a responding volunteer is just showing up!

message me if you have any questions and ill answer what I can and get you in contact with a recruiter if I can't answer.
"Jump in there sport, get it done and we'll all sing your praises." -Chas

How many times a day could you say this? :cheers2:

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RoyGBiv
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#154

Post by RoyGBiv » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:14 pm

All you Hams should join your local RACES/ARES.
They gave me a very nice FEMA "Emergency Communications" ID card and I enjoy doing the volunteer work. Met some good folks.

"Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service"
http://www.usraces.org/

"Amateur Radio Emergency Service"
http://www.arrl.org/ares

Or if you have a local CERT, that's another good organization to consider. Also administered under FEMA.

Community Emergency Response Team
https://www.ready.gov/community-emergency-response-team

Fort Worth RACES training is a 4-hour class and background check, in addition to being a licensed radio operator. They have a monthly on-air training/check-in that's usually a half hour or so. Other locations will have different requirements, but nothing too onerous.

CERT training is more extensive. Typically 30-40 hours of classroom, plus monthly meetings to stay active. Again, different localities will have different requirements, but the curriculum is laid out pretty clearly by FEMA. Check your local area...
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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SRO1911
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#155

Post by SRO1911 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:55 pm

TexasJohnBoy wrote:
SRO1911 wrote:interestingly enough, we have had two applications for our VFD who referenced this bill. While we will closely be watching for genuine interest and motivation - I for one am willing to reach for ANY additional tool in the recruiting tool box. I would have been much happier with some of the other proposed bills, I just can't be completely happy with anything that makes a separate class (even if im in it).

Now we just need to find a way to sign up the million or so LTC holders as first responders, every single one of them to make it fair.
In general, what is required to become a volunteer fire fighter? I live out in the county and before this became a thing I was playing with the idea of volunteering for the VFD closest to me. I wonder if VFD would be more rewarding/impactful than CERT?
many other's have addressed this quite well.
I will reiterate, that although all departments are different- the need for manpower is near universal. those who can, fight fire. not everyone can make entry on a structure, that's ok. we have 70+ year old retirees and 20 year old airmen. each has a place, and we work together. if you do not feel like you can bunk out and climb a ladder in a hundred pounds of gear...drive a truck or help with book keeping or man a booth for fundraising or ..... the list is endless.
That 70 year old retiree I mentioned is a great driver, we fight off the back of our brush trucks (neener TFS) and if he is there to run a truck or tender then there is one more FF2 guy who is free to work elsewhere.

As far as rewarding, I can't say. I know my department has invested a small fortune in my training- training I would not otherwise be able to afford. I'm a training junkie so I grab everything I can. those certs are mine, they go with me and while high angle rescue, low angle rescue, emt, VET2, tac-med, FF1, FF2, and a dozen more may not be a good star on every resume - they are valuable skills in innumerable situations. It has been rewarding for me, and heart breaking.
If your department runs medicals you will eventually get one of those calls that shakes you to the core. you will eventually lie to someone and tell them everything is going to be ok when you know it's not.
You will eventually show up for an MVA where you pick up pieces.
You will eventually see a family lose everything they have in a fire.

but for every one of those, you will have so many that make you proud to be a part of the organization. You will have a thousand children grinning from ear to ear when you roll the engine up to the school for fire prevention week.
You will smile exhausted, looking at black ground where you stopped the grass fire just a yard from a family farm.
You will learn the true value of a bottle of water the neighbors brought as you come out of a structure for rehab.

It has been rewarding for me.
When any govt, or church,says This you can't read, are forbidden to know, the result is tyranny and oppression. Little force is needed to control a man who has been hoodwinked; no force can control a free man, not the rack, bombs, not anything, you can't conquer a free man, at most you can kill him.

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ScottDLS
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#156

Post by ScottDLS » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:56 pm

RoyGBiv wrote:All you Hams should join your local RACES/ARES.
They gave me a very nice FEMA "Emergency Communications" ID card and I enjoy doing the volunteer work. Met some good folks.

"Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service"
http://www.usraces.org/

"Amateur Radio Emergency Service"
http://www.arrl.org/ares

Or if you have a local CERT, that's another good organization to consider. Also administered under FEMA.

Community Emergency Response Team
https://www.ready.gov/community-emergency-response-team

Fort Worth RACES training is a 4-hour class and background check, in addition to being a licensed radio operator. They have a monthly on-air training/check-in that's usually a half hour or so. Other locations will have different requirements, but nothing too onerous.

CERT training is more extensive. Typically 30-40 hours of classroom, plus monthly meetings to stay active. Again, different localities will have different requirements, but the curriculum is laid out pretty clearly by FEMA. Check your local area...
This another great way to become an Emergency Services Volunteer. I really have to get my Technician license.... I've been saying it for 35 years, but now another reason to get into Ham Radio. :thumbs2:
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"


TreyHouston
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#157

Post by TreyHouston » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:24 pm

SRO1911 wrote:
TexasJohnBoy wrote:
SRO1911 wrote:interestingly enough, we have had two applications for our VFD who referenced this bill. While we will closely be watching for genuine interest and motivation - I for one am willing to reach for ANY additional tool in the recruiting tool box. I would have been much happier with some of the other proposed bills, I just can't be completely happy with anything that makes a separate class (even if im in it).

Now we just need to find a way to sign up the million or so LTC holders as first responders, every single one of them to make it fair.
In general, what is required to become a volunteer fire fighter? I live out in the county and before this became a thing I was playing with the idea of volunteering for the VFD closest to me. I wonder if VFD would be more rewarding/impactful than CERT?
many other's have addressed this quite well.
I will reiterate, that although all departments are different- the need for manpower is near universal. those who can, fight fire. not everyone can make entry on a structure, that's ok. we have 70+ year old retirees and 20 year old airmen. each has a place, and we work together. if you do not feel like you can bunk out and climb a ladder in a hundred pounds of gear...drive a truck or help with book keeping or man a booth for fundraising or ..... the list is endless.
That 70 year old retiree I mentioned is a great driver, we fight off the back of our brush trucks (neener TFS) and if he is there to run a truck or tender then there is one more FF2 guy who is free to work elsewhere.

As far as rewarding, I can't say. I know my department has invested a small fortune in my training- training I would not otherwise be able to afford. I'm a training junkie so I grab everything I can. those certs are mine, they go with me and while high angle rescue, low angle rescue, emt, VET2, tac-med, FF1, FF2, and a dozen more may not be a good star on every resume - they are valuable skills in innumerable situations. It has been rewarding for me, and heart breaking.
If your department runs medicals you will eventually get one of those calls that shakes you to the core. you will eventually lie to someone and tell them everything is going to be ok when you know it's not.
You will eventually show up for an MVA where you pick up pieces.
You will eventually see a family lose everything they have in a fire.

but for every one of those, you will have so many that make you proud to be a part of the organization. You will have a thousand children grinning from ear to ear when you roll the engine up to the school for fire prevention week.
You will smile exhausted, looking at black ground where you stopped the grass fire just a yard from a family farm.
You will learn the true value of a bottle of water the neighbors brought as you come out of a structure for rehab.

It has been rewarding for me.

Well said! May GOD bless people like you. :tiphat:
"Jump in there sport, get it done and we'll all sing your praises." -Chas

How many times a day could you say this? :cheers2:


Tylerscott20
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#158

Post by Tylerscott20 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:15 pm

Caption: Relating to the carrying of weapons, including the application of certain weapons and handgun license laws to certain persons, the carrying of handguns by license holders on the property of a state hospital, the liability for certain actions of volunteer emergency services personnel licensed to carry a handgun providing a civil penalty.

General Information:

Authorizes volunteer emergency services personnel to carry a handgun while engaged in providing emergency services if that emergency service person is licensed to carry.
Signage:

This bill adds section 552.002 to the Health and Safety Code to allow a state hospital to post a sign, in both English and Spanish, informing license to carry holders that they cannot enter the property with a handgun. A civil penalty may be imposed on a license to carry holder who carries on the property of a state hospital in which written notice is provided.
This is from the Texas DPS website on laws that go into effect on September 1st. It seems like their interpretation is different than mine... :rules:

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RoyGBiv
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#159

Post by RoyGBiv » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:31 pm

Tylerscott20 wrote:
Caption: Relating to the carrying of weapons, including the application of certain weapons and handgun license laws to certain persons, the carrying of handguns by license holders on the property of a state hospital, the liability for certain actions of volunteer emergency services personnel licensed to carry a handgun providing a civil penalty.

General Information:

Authorizes volunteer emergency services personnel to carry a handgun while engaged in providing emergency services if that emergency service person is licensed to carry.
Signage:

This bill adds section 552.002 to the Health and Safety Code to allow a state hospital to post a sign, in both English and Spanish, informing license to carry holders that they cannot enter the property with a handgun. A civil penalty may be imposed on a license to carry holder who carries on the property of a state hospital in which written notice is provided.
This is from the Texas DPS website on laws that go into effect on September 1st. It seems like their interpretation is different than mine... :rules:
The "while engaged in" language refers to 46.035.
The 30.06 and 30.07 defense to prosecution does not have that requirement.

I'd post the full code references if I wasn't posting from my phone.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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Tylerscott20
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#160

Post by Tylerscott20 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:48 pm

RoyGBiv wrote:
Tylerscott20 wrote:
Caption: Relating to the carrying of weapons, including the application of certain weapons and handgun license laws to certain persons, the carrying of handguns by license holders on the property of a state hospital, the liability for certain actions of volunteer emergency services personnel licensed to carry a handgun providing a civil penalty.

General Information:

Authorizes volunteer emergency services personnel to carry a handgun while engaged in providing emergency services if that emergency service person is licensed to carry.
Signage:

This bill adds section 552.002 to the Health and Safety Code to allow a state hospital to post a sign, in both English and Spanish, informing license to carry holders that they cannot enter the property with a handgun. A civil penalty may be imposed on a license to carry holder who carries on the property of a state hospital in which written notice is provided.
This is from the Texas DPS website on laws that go into effect on September 1st. It seems like their interpretation is different than mine... :rules:
The "while engaged in" language refers to 46.035.
The 30.06 and 30.07 defense to prosecution does not have that requirement.

I'd post the full code references if I wasn't posting from my phone.
I see it now after digging through the amended part of 30.06 and 30.07. The definition of Emergency services personnel is in 46.01. Thanks!

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RoyGBiv
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#161

Post by RoyGBiv » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:03 am

Circling back with the Bill text..
http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/85 ... 00435F.htm

The "engaged in providing" language is not a qualifier for "defense to prosecution" in 30.06 or 30.07, only for 46.035.

I am not a lawyer. This is my OPINION. Not legal advice.
SECTION 8. Section 30.06, Penal Code, is amended by adding
Subsection (f) to read as follows:
(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the license holder is volunteer emergency services personnel, as
defined by Section 46.01.

SECTION 9. Section 30.07, Penal Code, is amended by adding
Subsection (g) to read as follows:
(g) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that
the license holder is volunteer emergency services personnel, as
defined by Section 46.01.

SECTION 10. Section 46.01, Penal Code, is amended by adding
Subdivision (18) to read as follows:
(18) "Volunteer emergency services personnel"
includes a volunteer firefighter, an emergency medical services
volunteer as defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code,
and any individual who, as a volunteer, provides services for the
benefit of the general public during emergency situations. The
term does not include a peace officer or reserve law enforcement
officer, as those terms are defined by Section 1701.001,
Occupations Code, who is performing law enforcement duties.
...................

SECTION 12. Section 46.035, Penal Code, is amended by
adding Subsection (m) to read as follows:
(m) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections (b) and
(c) that the actor is volunteer emergency services personnel
engaged in providing emergency services.
Would have taken me a week to post that from my phone... :lol:
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#162

Post by TVGuy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:31 am

I think TX DPS conveniently applied the law in one section to the other sections. I can't see how a court would interpret it that way.


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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#163

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:41 am

TVGuy wrote:I think TX DPS conveniently applied the law in one section to the other sections. I can't see how a court would interpret it that way.
:iagree: I am not an expert, but I don't think the TX DPS has the power to create law.
Ding dong, the witch is dead

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RoyGBiv
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#164

Post by RoyGBiv » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:57 am

TVGuy wrote:I think TX DPS conveniently applied the law in one section to the other sections. I can't see how a court would interpret it that way.
From: https://www.dps.texas.gov/RSD/LTC/Legal ... lation.htm
Authorizes volunteer emergency services personnel to carry a handgun while engaged in providing emergency services if that emergency service person is licensed to carry.
I think it was an honest oversight, written by someone not completely familiar with the nuances of the Bill.

Given DPS's excellent performance in most things LTC-related, it's hard to imagine there was any sort of planned attempt to mislead.
I am not a lawyer. This is NOT legal advice.!
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Re: HB435 Volunteer Emergency Svces Carrying

#165

Post by NotRPB » Fri May 11, 2018 9:32 am

This topic blew my mind last night due to a strange situation in a training class at "A" fire station .

Instructor:
"I don't care if you carry concealed, it's none of my business and I don't want to know. Just don't open carry as that violates the concealed carry law. The only people who are not allowed to carry at all are the Firemen."
I don't want to get too detailed but : (and I may have misunderstood him, but want to give him a copy of the newest
License To Carry A Handgun Laws

The CHL-16 is now called the LTC-16
I kept my mouth shut but here's the strange part
There are TWO FIRE DEPARTMENTS
One is Paid
One is Volunteer


http://www.marblefallsfire.org/305/About-Us
Marble Falls Fire Rescue
About Us
Marble Falls Fire Rescue is a professional paid department that provides 24 hour protection to the City of Marble Falls. Our current ISO rating is a 3.
Early in 2000 the City began hiring firefighters and in 2002 formed the Marble Falls Fire/Rescue to serve inside the City limits. (Replacing the prior Volunteer FD inside the city limits. However the Volunteer FD exists still as Mutual Aid and can assist the Paid Marble Falls Fire Rescue Firemen inside the city limits when needed.)

http://www.mfavfd.org/about.html
Marble Falls Area Volunteer Fire Department, Inc.
The Volunteer Department drew up plans in late 2009 and built the station at 606 Ave. U. We moved in June of 2010.
Marble Falls Area (Volunteer [Emphasis added]) FD remains a separate entity which provides mutual aid to area cities and communities whenever necessary.

In 2012 voters elected to form an ESD (Emergency Services District) The Marble Falls Area Volunteer Fire Department serves ESD #6.
So while fighting a fire side by side, Volunteer Firemen can carry but the city employed Firemen can't?

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