SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

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Jusme
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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#46

Post by Jusme » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:37 pm

apvonkanel wrote:
Abraham wrote:What about privately run prisons?

Would they be considered a type of outsourcing law enforcement or come under another type category?
While this may get a lot of grief, I believe that the original order to stop using corporate prisons was phenomenal. Privatization of Justice has had a ridiculously detrimental impact on the legal system as a whole. When corporations profit from others' crimes, they pass the incentives on to legislators when it comes to keeping their noses in our business. They then pass the cost on to us as tax payers.


Not to be argumentative, but from all reports that I have seen, private prisons, actually save the taxpayer money per inmate. All construction costs are absorbed by the corporation, as well as payroll, maintenance costs, utility bills, etc. Every employee pays taxes, and the local economies around them, benefit from people moving in to live close to their jobs, and buying local goods and services. They have a much better record when it comes to escape and escape attempts. Additionally as a corporation, they have to pay corporate income tax to the IRS. So even with property tax incentives, the tax payers come out ahead. Private prisons cannot increase sentences, for prisoners, nor shorten them. They have no influence on the judicial system, at all, that I am aware of. While it may appear unseemly to profit from the incarceration of criminals, I don't have any objections to it. JMHO
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apvonkanel
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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#47

Post by apvonkanel » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:25 pm

Jusme wrote:
apvonkanel wrote:
Abraham wrote:What about privately run prisons?

Would they be considered a type of outsourcing law enforcement or come under another type category?
While this may get a lot of grief, I believe that the original order to stop using corporate prisons was phenomenal. Privatization of Justice has had a ridiculously detrimental impact on the legal system as a whole. When corporations profit from others' crimes, they pass the incentives on to legislators when it comes to keeping their noses in our business. They then pass the cost on to us as tax payers.


Not to be argumentative, but from all reports that I have seen, private prisons, actually save the taxpayer money per inmate. All construction costs are absorbed by the corporation, as well as payroll, maintenance costs, utility bills, etc. Every employee pays taxes, and the local economies around them, benefit from people moving in to live close to their jobs, and buying local goods and services. They have a much better record when it comes to escape and escape attempts. Additionally as a corporation, they have to pay corporate income tax to the IRS. So even with property tax incentives, the tax payers come out ahead. Private prisons cannot increase sentences, for prisoners, nor shorten them. They have no influence on the judicial system, at all, that I am aware of. While it may appear unseemly to profit from the incarceration of criminals, I don't have any objections to it. JMHO
Oh yeah, that I agree with, but it's because they cherry-pick the lower cost inmates (they don't handle those with higher medical expenses, etc.). The cost passed to us is through the fact that they lobby for unneeded laws, and stricter penalties, therefore making more money by having more inmates.
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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#48

Post by Flightmare » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:35 pm

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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#49

Post by Lambda Force » Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:09 pm

Tyranny is identified by what is legal for government employees but illegal for the citizenry.

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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#50

Post by TexasJohnBoy » Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:33 am

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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#51

Post by baseballguy2001 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:00 pm

What you vote for, is what you get. I'm pretty sure The Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying, isn't elected, but the politicians who appropriate the money for the board sure are. The fine is clearly unconstitutional. All of us have heard it, "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride". This guy is going to spend a lot more that $500 fighting this, and there will be zero consequences to the board members.
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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#52

Post by ScottDLS » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:04 pm

baseballguy2001 wrote:What you vote for, is what you get. I'm pretty sure The Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying, isn't elected, but the politicians who appropriate the money for the board sure are. The fine is clearly unconstitutional. All of us have heard it, "You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride". This guy is going to spend a lot more that $500 fighting this, and there will be zero consequences to the board members.
Luckily he has help from Institute for Justice. But still will be a hassle.
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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#53

Post by baseballguy2001 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:25 pm

A hassle? Understatement of the year friend. The basic problem is, when government makes a mistake, and I'm putting it mildly here, almost nobody is ever held accountable.

I just finished reading the entire FDLE report for the negligence shooting in Florida of a 73 year old woman taking part in a police demonstration. The dead woman was given a blue safety Glock with simunation ammo. Her killer, used his personal S&W 637. The state agency interviewed almost everybody present, (with the exception of the officer who pulled the trigger, they spoke with his attorney) including at least a half dozen officers that observed the demonstration. When you boil it all down, nobody checked the 637, or the ammo to be used in that weapon. As part of the investigation, they cataloged the ammo the officer had in his vehicle. Two boxes of CCI Blazer HBWC .38 caliber ammunition, three boxes of Winchester .38 blank firing cartridges, and one box of Fiocchi .380 blank rounds. The officer (a Lieutenant!!) who "probably" gave him the wad cutters, said she thought they were blanks. They were from her residence, her husbands personal ammo. (he's an LEO also) Did she not read what was printed on the box?

Bottom line, here is the conclusion of the report: "There is no evidence that Officer XXXX intended to use lethal ammunition while participating in the role play scenario with XXXX on August 9, 2016. Furthermore, it is apparent that Ofc. XXXX's, and others', inability to differentiate between blank firing cartridges and .38 caliber HBWC ammunition resulted in XXXX's death."

My conclusion: if it's a highest ranking official in the State Department, or an LEO that didn't "intend" to kill a civilian, the same standard applies for government employees.
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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#54

Post by ScottDLS » Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:37 pm

baseballguy2001 wrote:A hassle? Understatement of the year friend. The basic problem is, when government makes a mistake, and I'm putting it mildly here, almost nobody is ever held accountable.
...
Realize however in this case it's a matter of a $500 fine and no jail time, as outrageous as that is, it is only by (rightly) pursuing it that the cost of appeal becomes prohibitive. This is undoubtedly why the idiot Oregon legislature set the penalty as essentially their version of a "Class C" misdemeanor. They know it has zero chance of withstanding Constitutional scrutiny, but figured no one would challenge it, if they just made it a monetary "hassle".

Getting shot by Barney Fife in Florida is significantly different than getting "ticketed" for speaking out. Both are wrong, but the stakes are a lot higher in the case of the Florida woman. The Institute for Justice can not bring her back. :shock:
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#55

Post by baseballguy2001 » Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:20 pm

Agree - apologies if I gave the impression they were the same. They're not, not by a long shot.
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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#56

Post by jailbird » Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:37 pm

bagman45 wrote:Get rid of ALL of them!!! Complete revenue grab. Do a bit of research; most are issued for failure to come to a complete stop while turning right on a red light. No danger to anyone, but annoying and expensive for those who choose to pay them....
And that is EXACTLY what happened to me in Plano. Stopped at a red light approaching US-75, cross traffic JUST got a green light and was about to start. I could safely go so I did, and got a ticket for failure to stop because they claim I wasn't completely stopped for a full 2 seconds.

Yes, I realize technically I did break the law by not stopping for a full 2 seconds before turning, but it was completely safe, nobody was in any harm in any way, it was just a monkey grab.


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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#57

Post by priusron » Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:20 pm

Jailbird does the law actually state you must stop for 2 seconds or does it say you must come to a complete stop prior to proceeding?

On the subject of private prisons. They are not cheaper. They are garunteed by contract to have a percentage of occupancy. Something like 98%. If they are not at the contract percentage, they are paid for people not housed in their prison. They also have no oversight if they kill offenders.

Arizona has passed a law that if you receive a red light camera ticket, they have 90 days to serve you. If not served within 90 days they can do nothing, it goes away. They cannot ruin your credit either. It does nor effect your insurance, registration or drivers license. They don't attempt to collect from corporate owners of vehicles or from out of state drivers. These are two of the reasons these laws were passed. The law also required the companies to have a private investigators license. Only one company obtained their license.

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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#58

Post by OldCurlyWolf » Thu May 18, 2017 10:01 am

jailbird wrote:
bagman45 wrote:Get rid of ALL of them!!! Complete revenue grab. Do a bit of research; most are issued for failure to come to a complete stop while turning right on a red light. No danger to anyone, but annoying and expensive for those who choose to pay them....
And that is EXACTLY what happened to me in Plano. Stopped at a red light approaching US-75, cross traffic JUST got a green light and was about to start. I could safely go so I did, and got a ticket for failure to stop because they claim I wasn't completely stopped for a full 2 seconds.

Yes, I realize technically I did break the law by not stopping for a full 2 seconds before turning, but it was completely safe, nobody was in any harm in any way, it was just a monkey grab.
Per some admittedly incomplete research, the 2 second rule you mentioned, DOES NOT EXIST.

Here are a couple of places I looked.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_long_shoul ... sign_in_TX

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... TN.544.htm
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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#59

Post by apvonkanel » Fri May 19, 2017 9:21 am

OldCurlyWolf wrote:
jailbird wrote:
bagman45 wrote:Get rid of ALL of them!!! Complete revenue grab. Do a bit of research; most are issued for failure to come to a complete stop while turning right on a red light. No danger to anyone, but annoying and expensive for those who choose to pay them....
And that is EXACTLY what happened to me in Plano. Stopped at a red light approaching US-75, cross traffic JUST got a green light and was about to start. I could safely go so I did, and got a ticket for failure to stop because they claim I wasn't completely stopped for a full 2 seconds.

Yes, I realize technically I did break the law by not stopping for a full 2 seconds before turning, but it was completely safe, nobody was in any harm in any way, it was just a monkey grab.
Per some admittedly incomplete research, the 2 second rule you mentioned, DOES NOT EXIST.

Here are a couple of places I looked.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_long_shoul ... sign_in_TX

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... TN.544.htm
OCW is correct. The traffic laws use the phrase "shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop before entering". Nowhere is there a minimum time for the "stop. You vehicle must not be in motion. Nowhere in the state law is there a requirement for a minimum length of time for the stop. On a side note, there is no legal requirement for you to stop at any point in a yellow light. The laws are pretty vague regarding stopping at the transition from yellow to red (often left to interpretation of the officer and/or judge). For example, in Pasadena SOP is if most of your car is past the entrance of the intersection before it turns red they will generally let you go (or the judge will dismiss). Deer Park, however, will ticket and convict if any of your car isn't past the entrance of the intersection. Oddly enough, there is no regulation regarding a "buffer time" between one direction turning red and the other green. Some municipalities have their lights change simultaneously, others allow a second or two for traffic clearing through the intersection.
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Re: SB 88- Making red light camera tickets illegal

#60

Post by OldCurlyWolf » Fri May 19, 2017 9:54 am

apvonkanel wrote:
OldCurlyWolf wrote:
jailbird wrote:
bagman45 wrote:Get rid of ALL of them!!! Complete revenue grab. Do a bit of research; most are issued for failure to come to a complete stop while turning right on a red light. No danger to anyone, but annoying and expensive for those who choose to pay them....
And that is EXACTLY what happened to me in Plano. Stopped at a red light approaching US-75, cross traffic JUST got a green light and was about to start. I could safely go so I did, and got a ticket for failure to stop because they claim I wasn't completely stopped for a full 2 seconds.

Yes, I realize technically I did break the law by not stopping for a full 2 seconds before turning, but it was completely safe, nobody was in any harm in any way, it was just a monkey grab.
Per some admittedly incomplete research, the 2 second rule you mentioned, DOES NOT EXIST.

Here are a couple of places I looked.

http://www.answers.com/Q/How_long_shoul ... sign_in_TX

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... TN.544.htm
OCW is correct. The traffic laws use the phrase "shall stop at a clearly marked stop line. In the absence of a stop line, the operator shall stop before entering". Nowhere is there a minimum time for the "stop. You vehicle must not be in motion. Nowhere in the state law is there a requirement for a minimum length of time for the stop. On a side note, there is no legal requirement for you to stop at any point in a yellow light. The laws are pretty vague regarding stopping at the transition from yellow to red (often left to interpretation of the officer and/or judge). For example, in Pasadena SOP is if most of your car is past the entrance of the intersection before it turns red they will generally let you go (or the judge will dismiss). Deer Park, however, will ticket and convict if any of your car isn't past the entrance of the intersection. Oddly enough, there is no regulation regarding a "buffer time" between one direction turning red and the other green. Some municipalities have their lights change simultaneously, others allow a second or two for traffic clearing through the intersection.
Unless policy has changed, which is possible, Pasadena teaches in their academy that if the front bumper "Breaks the Plane of the intersection" before the light turns red, you have not run the red light.

In case you are wondering, BTDT with PPD. Former LEO. Many years ago.
I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on.
I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them.

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