Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

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Papa_Tiger
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#106

Post by Papa_Tiger » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:39 pm

mojo84 wrote:I can tell you, I met with my rep, his chief of staff and one of his legislative affairs staffers and they all three said they get the impression there is zero appetite to pursue MAJOR new legislation in the area of guns and 2nd Amendment, most especially unlicensed carry. They indicate some minor cleanup and clarifying legislation may have a shot but nothing major.

That's just one rep but it appears they've been testing the water on this issue.
At the beginning of last session, I'm pretty sure that I recall people saying their reps were indicating that there was limited support for open carry and very little for campus carry and we wound up with both.

Last session was a FANTASTIC one for gun rights in Texas. My biggest hope is that the dishonesty of local officials regarding fines for signs receives attention at the capitol and will result in fewer off-limits locations for LTC holders as well as more teeth in SB273.


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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#107

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:35 pm

Papa_Tiger wrote:
mojo84 wrote:I can tell you, I met with my rep, his chief of staff and one of his legislative affairs staffers and they all three said they get the impression there is zero appetite to pursue MAJOR new legislation in the area of guns and 2nd Amendment, most especially unlicensed carry. They indicate some minor cleanup and clarifying legislation may have a shot but nothing major.

That's just one rep but it appears they've been testing the water on this issue.
At the beginning of last session, I'm pretty sure that I recall people saying their reps were indicating that there was limited support for open carry and very little for campus carry and we wound up with both.

Last session was a FANTASTIC one for gun rights in Texas. My biggest hope is that the dishonesty of local officials regarding fines for signs receives attention at the capitol and will result in fewer off-limits locations for LTC holders as well as more teeth in SB273.
We definitely need to do something about strengthening the "fines for signs" law. Are there any bills that will either strengthen this, or go a different way altogether to try and get at the same result?

I can think of a number of approaches that might work, including a fine payable directly to any LTC holder that is unlawfully denied entry because they are carrying (either OC or CC). That requires a legal determination, but it would put the onus on the government agency to show that they, or their lessee, denied entry for some other reason (loud, abusive behavior, etc). Make the fine large enough to matter. $25,000 per instance / person denied entry, and it should deter the criminal behavior we are seeing now from the public servants that we employ.
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#108

Post by G.A. Heath » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:18 pm

The biggest problem with unlicensed carry is that the well is poisoned right now with legislators. Many would support it, just as many would fight it. In the end you have to get the ones on the fence onboard to advance your goals and unfortunately you will see three major forces at work trying to sway those on the fence to vote one way or the other. The NRA and TSRA will not fight it, they might go so far as to give it their blessing and offer amendments to improve the bill, but going to bat for it is different horse. You will see Law enforcement, Bloomberg's minions, and the NRA/TSRA on all gun bills. The NRA and TSRA will consider what their members want to see passed, they will then evaluate those priorities to see what can be done, and what can not be done with the political capital they have. They will then decide to support the legislation that will get them the most political capital and goodwill for the next session so they can drive membership up and show that they got results on issues their members wanted passed. When this session starts I suspect they will already be looking to see what they can do NEXT session, and will in fact be working on it while trying to push legislation this session .
I am also a Gun guy, Car Guy, and Computer Guy and a currently former podcaster.

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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#109

Post by Liberty » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:33 pm

How has constitutional carry worked out in Arizona, They have a couple of large cities, I haven't seen any statistics. But I also haven't seen any big movement to get rid of it. It seems to work there, how is Texas different?
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#110

Post by nlyric » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:50 pm

:fire Heck, west Virginia governor veto a Cc bill and it was over ridden. Missouri the same thing. Democratic governors in both. In the last year alone...There is no reason in the world we as the people of this state should not expect this bill to sail through. None !!!!!!
Texas, the gun friendly state. It is well beyond time we act like it.... :boxing

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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#111

Post by Jusme » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:56 pm

Liberty wrote:How has constitutional carry worked out in Arizona, They have a couple of large cities, I haven't seen any statistics. But I also haven't seen any big movement to get rid of it. It seems to work there, how is Texas different?

Texas is different due to population density and left wing factions at work in the big cities. Arizona's largest city is Phoenix, and it has a population of 1.4 million. The rest of the state is pretty sparsely populated, and the prevailing attitudes there are not nearly as left leaning as any of our large cities, like Houston Dallas, San Antonio and Austin. There was resistance from the left in Arizona with open and unrestricted carry, but they didn't have the numbers.

I'm not suggesting that Texas gun owners are less responsible, it is just the political climate here is vastly different than Arizona's
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#112

Post by Liberty » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:20 am

Jusme wrote:
Liberty wrote:How has constitutional carry worked out in Arizona, They have a couple of large cities, I haven't seen any statistics. But I also haven't seen any big movement to get rid of it. It seems to work there, how is Texas different?

Texas is different due to population density and left wing factions at work in the big cities. Arizona's largest city is Phoenix, and it has a population of 1.4 million. The rest of the state is pretty sparsely populated, and the prevailing attitudes there are not nearly as left leaning as any of our large cities, like Houston Dallas, San Antonio and Austin. There was resistance from the left in Arizona with open and unrestricted carry, but they didn't have the numbers.

I'm not suggesting that Texas gun owners are less responsible, it is just the political climate here is vastly different than Arizona's
I don't agree with your population assessment, although I don't have any facts or figures at hand. Tuscon is a college town that to me is as liberal as Austin. and The city of Phoenix is as dense as the sprawled out Houston with a very large population of Hispanics (legal and illegal). Although the towns and unincorporated parts around Arizona are very conservative. Maricopa County tends to be pretty conservative, but they don't have a lot of support from the city of Phoenix itself. I think it's fair to make comparisons, on how constitutional carry would work.

The difference is the culture, The people there have always had exposure to guns and the open carry. Open carry there has not only been allowed but people there have actually done it. Years ago there were bars where folks actually checked their guns. We weren't even allowed to conceal carry until 1996, and open carry until very recently.

My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#113

Post by Jusme » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:30 am

Liberty wrote:
Jusme wrote:
Liberty wrote:How has constitutional carry worked out in Arizona, They have a couple of large cities, I haven't seen any statistics. But I also haven't seen any big movement to get rid of it. It seems to work there, how is Texas different?

Texas is different due to population density and left wing factions at work in the big cities. Arizona's largest city is Phoenix, and it has a population of 1.4 million. The rest of the state is pretty sparsely populated, and the prevailing attitudes there are not nearly as left leaning as any of our large cities, like Houston Dallas, San Antonio and Austin. There was resistance from the left in Arizona with open and unrestricted carry, but they didn't have the numbers.

I'm not suggesting that Texas gun owners are less responsible, it is just the political climate here is vastly different than Arizona's
I don't agree with your population assessment, although I don't have any facts or figures at hand. Tuscon is a college town that to me is as liberal as Austin. and The city of Phoenix is as dense as the sprawled out Houston with a very large population of Hispanics (legal and illegal). Although the towns and unincorporated parts around Arizona are very conservative. Maricopa County tends to be pretty conservative, but they don't have a lot of support from the city of Phoenix itself. I think it's fair to make comparisons, on how constitutional carry would work.

The difference is the culture, The people there have always had exposure to guns and the open carry. Open carry there has not only been allowed but people there have actually done it. Years ago there were bars where folks actually checked their guns. We weren't even allowed to conceal carry until 1996, and open carry until very recently.

My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.

I agree the culture in Arizona is much different than in Texas. And I agree that Arizona, as well as other states, could be used to demonstrate that unrestricted carry is workable. My thinking is that Texas has only recently become a conservative State, we are only three Governors removed from Ann Richards. The margins of difference are slim, and old prevailing attitudes still remain, regarding the carrying of handguns, on both sides of the spectrum. While 20 years seems like a long time, to me, as well as the "old guard" in Texas politics, it has only been a few minutes since CHL was passed. With no long history, to fall back on, the idea of unrestricted carry, still scares the you know what, out of people here. JMHO
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#114

Post by Syntyr » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:25 am

Liberty wrote:
My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.
Liberty,

Totally agree on the validity of your statement. But the problem is the very statement itself requires that legislatures and their constituents use logic and think about an issue instead of using their feels. Unfortunately a majority of people nowadays rely on their feelings and even mentioning the word gun evoks a fight or flight response in them. Dont know how we get past it but I wish we could...
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#115

Post by Liberty » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:30 am

Syntyr wrote:
Liberty wrote:
My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.
Liberty,

Totally agree on the validity of your statement. But the problem is the very statement itself requires that legislatures and their constituents use logic and think about an issue instead of using their feels. Unfortunately a majority of people nowadays rely on their feelings and even mentioning the word gun evoks a fight or flight response in them. Dont know how we get past it but I wish we could...
Education! It's worked in past, but it takes time. Most people in Texas are comfortable with an armed public, and this is why we have come so far.
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#116

Post by Papa_Tiger » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:45 am

Liberty wrote:Most people in Texas are comfortable with an armed public, and this is why we have come so far.
I would probably disagree with that statement. At least in the dense metropolitan areas. That is why the number of 30.06/07 signs went through the roof this past year. My opinion is that posting 06 indicates an attitude of "Icky guns! why do you need that?!?" and 07 indicates "I don't care, I just don't want to see it for my sake or for the sake of my other customers."

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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#117

Post by Jusme » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:56 am

Liberty wrote:
Syntyr wrote:
Liberty wrote:
My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.
Liberty,

Totally agree on the validity of your statement. But the problem is the very statement itself requires that legislatures and their constituents use logic and think about an issue instead of using their feels. Unfortunately a majority of people nowadays rely on their feelings and even mentioning the word gun evoks a fight or flight response in them. Dont know how we get past it but I wish we could...
Education! It's worked in past, but it takes time. Most people in Texas are comfortable with an armed public, and this is why we have come so far.

Exactly, the general public is still being fed the left wing, anti gun rhetoric, and with very few exceptions, there is nothing in mainstream communications, to offer a different perspective. I wish that more gun owners, not just LTC holders would become better ambassadors for our cause. I think that we as LTC holders have done an exemplary job of not only educating, but demonstrating our trustworthiness, unfortunately, we haven't been able to expand that message very far outside our inner circle. If we can work together to expand the message that we are not a bunch of "gun nuts" wanting to walk around terrorizing the populace, then we can begin to chip away at the fear and loathing spread by the left. I know it will take two things most people don't have in great supply and that is time and money. I am very encouraged by the huge increases in LTC holders throughout the State, so I believe the wall is slowly coming down, but we will have to remain on our "A" game to continue to spread the message to everyone we can.
I try to talk to people all the time about carrying. Generally when the subject of being afraid to be out in public, comes up, because they are afraid of being victimized, I encourage them to look into the possibility of becoming an LTC holder, training, etc.. Some take it to heart and go about getting their LTC. Others, repeat misinformation they have heard from the left about how dangerous it is to carry, and some are very adamant about not doing so.
These one on one exchanges, are important, but it's a slow process, and doesn't reach everyone.
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#118

Post by Syntyr » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:58 am

Liberty wrote:
Syntyr wrote:
Liberty wrote:
My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.
Liberty,

Totally agree on the validity of your statement. But the problem is the very statement itself requires that legislatures and their constituents use logic and think about an issue instead of using their feels. Unfortunately a majority of people nowadays rely on their feelings and even mentioning the word gun evoks a fight or flight response in them. Dont know how we get past it but I wish we could...
Education! It's worked in past, but it takes time. Most people in Texas are comfortable with an armed public, and this is why we have come so far.
And that is why I OC every where I can! Especially in Houston - Take that Art Acevedo!

Also just taught my 16 year old niece to shoot for the first time.

Image
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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#119

Post by Jusme » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:08 am

Syntyr wrote:
Liberty wrote:
Syntyr wrote:
Liberty wrote:
My suggestion to compare Arizona to Texas though wasn't to imply that it should be easier to pass the implementation, but rather we that we should be able to use data from Arizona to judge the success or failure of open carry. This might not be the time to pass Constitutional Carry, but it is the time to start making the case for it.
Liberty,

Totally agree on the validity of your statement. But the problem is the very statement itself requires that legislatures and their constituents use logic and think about an issue instead of using their feels. Unfortunately a majority of people nowadays rely on their feelings and even mentioning the word gun evoks a fight or flight response in them. Dont know how we get past it but I wish we could...
Education! It's worked in past, but it takes time. Most people in Texas are comfortable with an armed public, and this is why we have come so far.
And that is why I OC every where I can! Especially in Houston - Take that Art Acevedo!

Also just taught my 16 year old niece to shoot for the first time.

Image

Awesome!!


Looks like she is already a crack shot!
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

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Re: Political Capital-Prohibited Places vs Constitutional Carry

#120

Post by Liberty » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:38 am

Papa_Tiger wrote:
Liberty wrote:Most people in Texas are comfortable with an armed public, and this is why we have come so far.
I would probably disagree with that statement. At least in the dense metropolitan areas. That is why the number of 30.06/07 signs went through the roof this past year. My opinion is that posting 06 indicates an attitude of "Icky guns! why do you need that?!?" and 07 indicates "I don't care, I just don't want to see it for my sake or for the sake of my other customers."
I understand that there is still a lot of antigun sentiment, But I believe we have we have come a long way, and that while we saw a lot of signs go up, Some have come back down after they have met with customer disapproval or education. Just because a few places put up signs doesn't mean that most people aren't understanding of our cause, the vast majority of retail allow guns.
This doesn't mean that we should rush into things either, We need to mitigate negative responses before we actually pass laws. Education is the answer; Maybe we can get TV ads like NRA produced for the Trump campaign. Maybe we need more facts and figures.
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