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Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:32 pm
by troglodyte
Sounded like the committee was very much in favor of the bill. Testimony against didn't fair too well. I won't be able to catch the rest.

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:21 pm
by SewTexas
Y'all is Renaldi correct? that unarmed security teams are illegal also?

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:07 pm
by rtschl
Correct. If you are doing security, unarmed or armed, you have to be licensed by the state. Level 2 security is (unarmed) non commissioned security officer.

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:09 pm
by SewTexas
rtschl wrote:Correct. If you are doing security, unarmed or armed, you have to be licensed by the state. Level 2 security is (unarmed) non commissioned security officer.

I thought we'd figured out that it was only armed....
Although I'm still trying to figure out what right the state has to tell churches what to do within the church.

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:15 pm
by Flightmare
SewTexas wrote:
rtschl wrote:Correct. If you are doing security, unarmed or armed, you have to be licensed by the state. Level 2 security is (unarmed) non commissioned security officer.

I thought we'd figured out that it was only armed....
Although I'm still trying to figure out what right the state has to tell churches what to do within the church.
I agree that it's silly that a volunteer "security" team should be regulated by the state. Unfortunately, it's difficult if not impossible for some small churches to be able to afford this, and still continue their work. I know at my small church, we have no security team. There are some members who are police, and several are LTCs who carry. But there is no official security team, and I believe that the law that HB 421 is attempting to fix is why.

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:33 pm
by thatguyoverthere
Someone please educate me.

I just looked over 1702 (granted, quickly skimmed over it) and I did not see anything that would prohibit a person acting as an unpaid volunteer security person for a church. All I saw was references to being a paid employee in that position.

Obviously I'm missing something. Someone please tell me what specific paragraph(s) in the code currently prohibits a church member (or members) from simply walking around inside and/or outside a church just watching for trouble?

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:34 pm
by SewTexas
Flightmare wrote:
SewTexas wrote:
rtschl wrote:Correct. If you are doing security, unarmed or armed, you have to be licensed by the state. Level 2 security is (unarmed) non commissioned security officer.

I thought we'd figured out that it was only armed....
Although I'm still trying to figure out what right the state has to tell churches what to do within the church.
I agree that it's silly that a volunteer "security" team should be regulated by the state. Unfortunately, it's difficult if not impossible for some small churches to be able to afford this, and still continue their work. I know at my small church, we have no security team. There are some members who are police, and several are LTCs who carry. But there is no official security team, and I believe that the law that HB 421 is attempting to fix is why.

yes, it looks like he's trying to fix it. But it sounded at the end, as he was trying to wrap up, that Renaldi, himself, was confused. I'm not sure if anyone else heard that as well? Maybe I was confused at that point, I had missed the early testimony so that might have been part of it. But if he doesn't understand all of the law that is involved, that's going to be a problem.

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:43 pm
by rtschl
thatguyoverthere wrote:Someone please educate me.

I just looked over 1702 (granted, quickly skimmed over it) and I did not see anything that would prohibit a person acting as an unpaid volunteer security person for a church. All I saw was references to being a paid employee in that position.

Obviously I'm missing something. Someone please tell me what specific paragraph(s) in the code currently prohibits a church member (or members) from simply walking around inside and/or outside a church just watching for trouble?
DPS Private Security Bureau (PSB) gave an opinion in 2007 as such: https://www.dps.texas.gov/rsd/psb/Laws/psb_opin_sum.htm and has also been discussed here on the forum many times - one such is here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=64221

According to PSB: A volunteer security patrol made up of church members would generally require licensing under the provisions of Section 1702.108 or 1702.222, regardless of whether any compensation is received as a result of the activities. The only exception to licensing provided by the legislature for nonprofit and civic organizations is found in Section 1702.327, which applies specifically to nonprofit and civic organizations that employ peace officers under certain circumstances and would not be applicable here.

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:56 pm
by thatguyoverthere
rtschl wrote:
thatguyoverthere wrote:Someone please educate me.

I just looked over 1702 (granted, quickly skimmed over it) and I did not see anything that would prohibit a person acting as an unpaid volunteer security person for a church. All I saw was references to being a paid employee in that position.

Obviously I'm missing something. Someone please tell me what specific paragraph(s) in the code currently prohibits a church member (or members) from simply walking around inside and/or outside a church just watching for trouble?
DPS Private Security Bureau (PSB) gave an opinion in 2007 as such: https://www.dps.texas.gov/rsd/psb/Laws/psb_opin_sum.htm and has also been discussed here on the forum many times - one such is here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=64221

According to PSB: A volunteer security patrol made up of church members would generally require licensing under the provisions of Section 1702.108 or 1702.222, regardless of whether any compensation is received as a result of the activities. The only exception to licensing provided by the legislature for nonprofit and civic organizations is found in Section 1702.327, which applies specifically to nonprofit and civic organizations that employ peace officers under certain circumstances and would not be applicable here.
Ok, thank you, Ron. I was unaware of the background because I was previously not in a situation to have a need to know about any of this, whereas I am more so now. Thanks for catching me up.

We need this bill!

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:27 pm
by gugisman
It was a good day for churches, I think.

One of the guys presented a letter he received from the author of the May 10, 2007 DOJ opinion, re: Volunteer Church Security members being under authority of TX OC1702. The letter apparently clarifies that the May 10 2007 letter is advisory only and non-binding. Does anyone have a copy to share here?

Also, the person who originally posed the question to DOJ was the owner of Guardian (church security company), Chuck Chadwick, who said so when presenting testimony against the bill.

Re: HB421

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:32 pm
by sbrawley
I enjoyed the part where the gentleman argued that the law violated the first amendment causing the chairman to take that into consideration.

Re: HB421

Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:23 pm
by ninjabread
sbrawley wrote:I enjoyed the part where the gentleman argued that the law violated the first amendment causing the chairman to take that into consideration.
There's a good argument HB421 violates the first amendment. Treating a religious organization differently than a non-religious organization is literally religious discrimination.

Unfortunately for the Paul Blart Lobby, there is a simple fix to that flaw. :reddevil

Re: HB421 Church Volunteer Security

Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:45 pm
by gugisman
That "gentleman" was me, thank you. ;-)