Concealed carry by school employees

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apvonkanel
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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#16

Post by apvonkanel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:20 pm

Jusme wrote:There are also a plethora of examples of teachers and other "vetted" school employees who demonstrated very poor judgment, to be kind, and outright criminal behavior to name it properly. Again, if the state, due to current constraints, give their blessing to legal citizens, carrying firearms in public, the idea that they will suddenly become less law abiding at a a school, where their own children attend, is, in my opinion, ludicrous.
Every parent will not be able to obtain their LTC, but neither would every school employee. Your arguments sound like they come directly from the MDA playbook. I have no problem with teachers, or any other school employee, being able to carry. I understand that they are the first line of defense for our most precious possession, in the event of an attack. But the idea, that a parent is somehow less likeley, or responsible enough, to put themselves between children and evil, doesn't pass the smell test. JMHO
I don't doubt that if there is an opportunity to put themselves between children and evil they will rise to the occasion. It's been my experience and observation that a parent's instinct flourishes in a crisis, regardless of who the child is. And I don't disagree with you in that, much like with police and doctors, there is the occasional evil amongst the saints. My point of contention comes from the fact that I've often seen generally responsible parents make choices that are wildly irresponsible in a school setting during casual situations (classroom parties are often followed by a slew of complaints regarding things other parents did). A simple example: I've seen parents talk to their children about things that are not their business to discuss around another's child (adult situations). While I wouldn't advocate denying a parent's access to their child at any point in the day, I do agree to limiting their activities when other children are around.
If any parent could be responsible enough to teach (or even aide) a class of children, all you would need would be a birth certificate to prove you were a parent, not a background check and references.
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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#17

Post by apvonkanel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:24 pm

This has certainly strayed from the original intent of the question (allowing greater defense of k-12 schools)...
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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#18

Post by tornado » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:37 pm

"Someone might misuse it" isn't a good reason to deny a constitutional right.

Arguments similar to yours could be made for lots of places people might misbehave. Let me think of some...
  • Polling place
    Court/Court office
    Racetrack
    Within 1,000 feet of execution of death sentence
    Business that makes at least 51% of revenue from on-premise alcohol consumption sales
    Sporting event
    Hospital
    Amusement park
    Church
    Meeting of a governmental entity if the meeting is an open meeting
Your reasoning is why I, as a non-drinker, have to look for 51% signs. Carrying under the influence is already illegal. So is being negligent with a firearm, in or out of a school.

And despite your examples, LTC holders are 21 times less likely to commit a crime than the general public.

Twenty-one times.

It seems crazy to me that I can carry at a park, a mall, or any number of other places where kids roam free but NOT in the school where my wife teaches or the schools that my kids attend just because someone else might be irresponsible.

(And although I'm currently in an armchair, I'll add that I've worked in higher ed & K12 and that I have at least a dozen teachers and librarians in my extended family... including my parents and MIL.)

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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#19

Post by tornado » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:40 pm

apvonkanel wrote:This has certainly strayed from the original intent of the question (allowing greater defense of k-12 schools)...
Although not specifically what you're asking, HB 560 would make it legal (even if still against policy).

I doubt we'll see something as specific as you outlined.


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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#20

Post by TreyHouston » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:04 pm

apvonkanel wrote:
TreyHouston wrote: You do know that guns don't bite kids right?! I an appalled that you even allowed a LEO ARMED inside the premises when he was not responding to a active shooter!!! What would have happened if the pot head had attacked the LEO? The LEO might have fired and missed and the bullet go through all the walls and bricks striking a student outside and killing/injuring many along the way! :???:
I support teachers packing, even better if they are allowed to open carry as well! Let the students SEE that guns don't bite and randomly shoot people. They might even feel better knowing that they are safe as well
The question isn't whether or not I believe bite (which obviously I wouldn't carry or want to carry if I I did), but if I believe any parent can be responsible around other people's children. The examples I gave (and countless others) are to point out that the answer is no, I know for a fact that many parents are reckless. Would you be okay with any parent with a driver's license driving a school bus? I certainly wouldn't. Dear Lord, every year there are at least 2-3 fender-benders in the parking lot during car-rider dismissal! There are a plethora of examples I can give you when it comes to things vetted teachers are allowed to do with a group of children that a parent walking in off the street wouldn't be allowed to do. It comes down to the fact that there is a world of difference between responsible enough for the general public vs. responsible enough for a school of 500-700 kids.
1) ANY parent probably won't be able to get their LTC
2) Im sure for every 1 gun you caught, 10 got passed you .... no problems there
3) some schools in the US already allow teachers to carry, no blood baths there
4) 21 year old college kids carry on campus. GOD, I remember when I was 21! Lol --no blood bath there
5) military soldiers have a pretty spotted record(i am a veteran and currently serve) should they/we not be issued guns ?
6) LEOs have a worse record than LTC , but they are welcomed without question. (Much love for LEOs)
7) students need to respect guns and see 'em. It leads to education and not fear mongering
8) anything possible to stop a massacre in a school should be done. If someone there that IS LICENSED but can't carry, they could have stopped Sandy Hook but was not allowed to.... geez... perhaps that was left out of the media??? Same example with malls and large areas that post 30.06/30.07, someone COULD have done something. Isn't that enough?
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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#21

Post by apvonkanel » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:11 pm

TreyHouston wrote:
1) ANY parent probably won't be able to get their LTC
2) Im sure for every 1 gun you caught, 10 got passed you .... no problems there
3) some schools in the US already allow teachers to carry, no blood baths there
4) 21 year old college kids carry on campus. GOD, I remember when I was 21! Lol --no blood bath there
5) military soldiers have a pretty spotted record(i am a veteran and currently serve) should they/we not be issued guns ?
6) LEOs have a worse record than LTC , but they are welcomed without question. (Much love for LEOs)
7) students need to respect guns and see 'em. It leads to education and not fear mongering
8) anything possible to stop a massacre in a school should be done. If someone there that IS LICENSED but can't carry, they could have stopped Sandy Hook but was not allowed to.... geez... perhaps that was left out of the media??? Same example with malls and large areas that post 30.06/30.07, someone COULD have done something. Isn't that enough?
It seems to me you're entirely missing the point that I'm WANTING teachers to have the ability to carry without needing school-board or superintendent approval, and I've stated multiple times that I'm not concerned about shootings from LTC's. It seems you're responding without reading the posts.
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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#22

Post by TreyHouston » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:29 pm

I'm not missing. I believe both teachers/staff AND parents should be allowed. That last post covered both. Talking about teachers, spotty record professions, and general public. ;-)

Edit: and college kids (comeon!!! We were all there...)
"Jump in there sport, get it done and we'll all sing your praises." -Chas

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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#23

Post by ninjabread » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:36 pm

apvonkanel wrote:I say only school employees because of the fact that many adults don't know how to act around kids, and I know for a fact this is problematic already. Let me paint a picture for you, only citing examples of known LTC holders at my campus. I know this because my position puts me all over the campus, interacting with most of the kids and parents that come up here.
A) A mom forgets to disarm before walking in the building. I stop her at the office (she's lucky it was me and I was just looking out for her), and quietly tell her "You're printing at your 4 o'clock". She loudly yells some profanity and runs out to her car. There are two students in the office, and while they didn't hear what I said, they certainly heard what she said.
B) A dad comes in reeking of marijuana, asking to pick up his kids early. I step away and call the officer from down the road. No way I'm letting the kids get in the car of someone obviously under the influence (I'm not a marijuana smoker myself, hold to a fairly libertarian view of it, but refuse to condone putting children at risk of an inebriated driver). Long story short, after the rest the cops informs me the guy had his LTC on him, pistol in the car.
C) A granddad comes in, pulling his motorcycle up to the doorway (literally the walkway, 5 feet from the door), get's his grandkid. No big deal so far, just a little annoying because it's in the way of kids going to recess. After he picks up his grandson, he re-arms and sits there and for about 2 minutes revving the engine for fun (my assumption is to impress the grandson, from observing the expressions on both).

What I'm saying here is that just because someone is legally able to carry a pistol doesn't mean I'm ready to jump on board with letting them carry one on my campus. Being legal doesn't mean decent and kid-friendly.
Those are interesting anecdotes but pick a newspaper. Some school employees sexually assault students and you want to give them guns!?

Do you see how that works?
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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#24

Post by WTR » Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:43 pm

I don't care who or what you are. If you have received your LTC you should be able to carry.... If not..... No carry.

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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#25

Post by Jusme » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:34 pm

ninjabread wrote:
apvonkanel wrote:I say only school employees because of the fact that many adults don't know how to act around kids, and I know for a fact this is problematic already. Let me paint a picture for you, only citing examples of known LTC holders at my campus. I know this because my position puts me all over the campus, interacting with most of the kids and parents that come up here.
A) A mom forgets to disarm before walking in the building. I stop her at the office (she's lucky it was me and I was just looking out for her), and quietly tell her "You're printing at your 4 o'clock". She loudly yells some profanity and runs out to her car. There are two students in the office, and while they didn't hear what I said, they certainly heard what she said.
B) A dad comes in reeking of marijuana, asking to pick up his kids early. I step away and call the officer from down the road. No way I'm letting the kids get in the car of someone obviously under the influence (I'm not a marijuana smoker myself, hold to a fairly libertarian view of it, but refuse to condone putting children at risk of an inebriated driver). Long story short, after the rest the cops informs me the guy had his LTC on him, pistol in the car.
C) A granddad comes in, pulling his motorcycle up to the doorway (literally the walkway, 5 feet from the door), get's his grandkid. No big deal so far, just a little annoying because it's in the way of kids going to recess. After he picks up his grandson, he re-arms and sits there and for about 2 minutes revving the engine for fun (my assumption is to impress the grandson, from observing the expressions on both).

What I'm saying here is that just because someone is legally able to carry a pistol doesn't mean I'm ready to jump on board with letting them carry one on my campus. Being legal doesn't mean decent and kid-friendly.
Those are interesting anecdotes but pick a newspaper. Some school employees sexually assault students and you want to give them guns!?

Do you see how that works?


Not to try to pile on, but, out of the three stories you listed, only one actually concerned the safety of a child, and that was an inebriated parent, and whether or not, he was a LTC holder was irrelevant. If a non LTC had come to the school in an impaired condition, I would expect you to respond the same way.
A harried mother, rushing to return a child's homework,/permission slip/ doctor's note/lunch etc. And forgetting to disarm, is not representative of someone who is totally irresponsible, even though she used a profanity after being notified. I have, myself, accidentally carried into my son's school when a scheduling conflict, with my wife, caused me to have to leave work early and pick up my son for a dental appointment, I didn't realize it until I had already signed him out and he was on his way to the office. Had someone pointed it out to me, I may have said a few bad words myself, but nothing that any child who watches prime time sitcoms hasn't heard.
The grandfather who picked up his grandson, while revving his motorcycle by the door, was probably, inconsiderate, but, as a grandfather, I know that if my grandchild said "make it loud pop-pop" I would have done same thing. The fact that he had disarmed before entering the school, and re-armed after leaving, shows that if nothing else he was law abiding.
No I wouldn't want all parents to drive school buses, but neither would I want all school employees to do so. Driving a school bus requires training as well as a special type of attitude.

I know that working in a school, may give you the sense that, people working there are somehow more responsible than the general public, but the general public includes, doctors, nurses, LEO, EMTs, firefighters, business managers, lawyers, truck drivers, and a whole multitude of people who perform jobs that teachers, or any school employees, would not be trusted to perform.
JMHO
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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#26

Post by Mxrdad » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:17 pm

[quote=" What I'm saying here is that just because someone is legally able to carry a pistol doesn't mean I'm ready to jump on board with letting them carry one on my campus. Being legal doesn't mean decent and kid-friendly.[/quote]

Those are interesting anecdotes but pick a newspaper. Some school employees sexually assault students and you want to give them guns!?

Do you see how that works?[/quote]

Ninja, are you saying you are against school employees from legally carrying?
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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#27

Post by WTR » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:23 pm

Just because you have a teaching license does not mean you are responsible and kid friendly. I am against all school employees being able to carry.


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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#28

Post by WTR » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:23 pm

Just because you have a teaching license does not mean you are responsible and kid friendly. I am against all school employees being able to carry.

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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#29

Post by ELB » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:28 pm

For decades now there are only about 100 LTC holders per year who lose their licenses because they got convicted of anything at all, never mind mis-use of the gun, and the number of LTC holders now exceeds the one-million mark. I find the argument that you shouldn't let them in schools because of the children to be...without merit. I would certainly be interested in a comparison of the conviction rates of LTC holder versus (non-LTC-bearing) teachers and administrators. I'll bet I know how that would come out.

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Re: Concealed carry by school employees

#30

Post by RogueUSMC » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:10 am

Mxrdad wrote:
What I'm saying here is that just because someone is legally able to carry a pistol doesn't mean I'm ready to jump on board with letting them carry one on my campus. Being legal doesn't mean decent and kid-friendly.
Those are interesting anecdotes but pick a newspaper. Some school employees sexually assault students and you want to give them guns!?

Do you see how that works?
Ninja, are you saying you are against school employees from legally carrying?
I think he was pointing out that you could cherry pick stories to illustrate your point no matter where your point may be...that's how I read his remarks anyway...
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