HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

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Papa_Tiger
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HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#1

Post by Papa_Tiger »

I posted this in the Senate Discussion thread, but thought it might be better to have discussion about this topic in a separate threat.

Based on my analysis of HB1927, the following Gun Signs will have force of law once it goes into effect:

30.05
Sign Description:
Includes language that is identical to or substantially similar to the following:
"Pursuant to Section 30. 05, Penal Code (criminal trespass), a person may not enter this property with a firearm"
In both English and Spanish in contrasting block letters at least 1 inch in height

How can it be posted:
At each entrance to the property, in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

Who can post:
Any private business or non-governmental entity not covered by TPC 46.03 PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED

Who does it apply to:
All persons carrying a firearm (this includes long guns as well as handguns)

Defense to prosecution provided to:
LTC holders under TPC 30.05(f) that states:
It is a defense to prosecution under this sect ion that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying:
(A) a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a handgun; and
(B) a handgun:
( i) in a concealed manner; or
(ii) in a holster.
Offense for violating:
Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200
Class A misdemeanor if you receive notice and fail to depart

30.06
Sign Description:
Language identical to the following:
"Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"
In both English and Spanish in contrasting colors at least 1 inch in height

How can it be posted:
On a property in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public - applies to the whole property, not just a premises (building or portion of a building)

Who can post:
Any private business, non-governmental entity, and governmental entity listed in TPC 46.03 PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
There are certain exceptions to the application of TPC 46.03 for license holders - namely governmental meetings subject to the open meetings act.
Government entities/buildings/locations that are not listed in TPC 46.03 can post, but the law cannot be applied to a license holder.

Who does it apply to:
Persons licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411 Government Code (handgun licensing law)

Defense to prosecution provided to:
Condo residents or guests, lessees of residential housing, or a lessee of a manufactured home going directly to or from a vehicle and housing unit
Volunteer emergency services personnel
License holders personally given oral notice who promptly depart the property

Who does it NOT apply to:
Unlicensed individuals

Offense for violating:
Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200
Class A misdemeanor if you receive notice and fail to depart

30.07
Sign Description:
Language identical to the following:
"Pursuant to Section 30.07, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with an openly carried handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a handgun that is carried openly"
In both English and Spanish in contrasting colors at least 1 inch in height

How can it be posted:
Displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public at each entrance to the property.

Who can post:
Any private business, non-governmental entity, and governmental entity listed in TPC 46.03 PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
There are certain exceptions to the application of TPC 46.03 for license holders - namely governmental meetings subject to the open meetings act.
Government entities/buildings/locations that are not listed in TPC 46.03 can post, but the law cannot be applied to a license holder.

Who does it apply to:
Persons licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411 Government Code (handgun licensing law)

Defense to prosecution provided to:
Condo residents or guests, lessees of residential housing, or a lessee of a manufactured home going directly to or from a vehicle and housing unit
Volunteer emergency services personnel
License holders personally given oral notice who promptly depart the property

Offense for violating:
Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200
Class A misdemeanor if you receive notice and fail to depart

46.03
Sign Description:
Language that is identical to or substantially similar to the following:
"Pursuant to Section 46.03, Penal Code (places weapons prohibited), a person may not carry a firearm or other weapon on this property"
In both English and Spanish in contrasting colors with block letters at least 1 inch in height

Where can it be posted:
On a property in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public - applies to the whole property, not just a premises (building or portion of a building)

Who can post:
Locations listed in TPC 46.03 including:
  • premises of a school or the grounds where a school sponsored activity is taking place (this includes colleges - no constitutional carry on university property)
  • premises of a polling place while voting is in progress
  • premises of a court or offices used by the court
  • premises of a racetrack
  • secured area of an airport
  • within 1000 ft. of a place of execution on the date of the execution
  • 51% locations
  • Premises of high school, collegiate, or professional sporting events while the event is taking place unless the weapon is used in the event
  • Premises of a correctional facility
  • Premises of a civil commitment facility
  • Hospitals and nursing homes
  • Certain state-run mental hospitals
  • Amusement parks
  • Government meetings subject to the open meetings act
Who does it apply to:
All persons carrying a firearm (this includes long guns as well as handguns)

Exceptions
Persons licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411 Government Code (handgun licensing law) may carry on public institutions of higher education and government meetings subject to the open meetings act
Collegiate sporting events, hospitals, nursing homes, and amusement parks must be posted with 30.06/7 to exclude persons licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411 Government Code (handgun licensing law)
51% locations must be properly posted to exclude anyone carrying a weapon

Defense to prosecution provided to:
Persons provided notice by the owner of the property, or from another person with apparent authority to act for the owner that carrying a firearm or other weapon on the premises or other property, as applicable, was prohibited; and promptly departed from the premises or other property.

This does not apply if the location was properly posted with the signs or the person knew that carrying a firearm or other weapon on the premises or other property was prohibited.

Persons possessing a firearm in a secured area of an airport licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411 Government Code (handgun licensing law) who are notified and immediately exit the checkpoint after completing the required screening

Offense for violating:
Third degree felony or Class A misdemeanor depending on which location the firearm was carried.

Soccerdad1995
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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#2

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

There are other defenses to prosecution for VESP's and LEO's (and possibly others). I know the VESP defense would apply for 30.06 / 30.07, not sure if it applies to 30.05.
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ScottDLS
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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#3

Post by ScottDLS »

Soccerdad1995 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 12:22 pm There are other defenses to prosecution for VESP's and LEO's (and possibly others). I know the VESP defense would apply for 30.06 / 30.07, not sure if it applies to 30.05.
Also another reason to keep your LTC. I suspect a lot of places will think they are covered by posting only a 30.05 sign, even for LTC's. I doubt many places will feel like posting 3 signs.

Also some who now have 30.06/7 signs will not figure out the new 30.05 signs are needed too, and as I pointed out before, a LTC can now (after 9/1) carry where no 30.05 is posted because he wouldn't be carrying "under the authority of LTC".
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#4

Post by Mike S »

Under TPC 46.03 you said:
Where can it be posted:
On a property in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public - applies to the whole property, not just a premises (building or portion of a building)
Are you sure that the prohibition applies to the "entire property" for all listed locations? Unless the definition of Premises has changed, or the wording of this statute specifies something along the lines of 'for the purpose of this statute, 'premises' means the entire property', I would think the 'entire property' only applies to "grounds where a school sponsored activity is taking place", and that the sidewalk/walkway, parking lot/parking garages, etc under the MPA would still be allowed (unless said parking lot/sidewalk is within 1,000' of the place of execution, on a scheduled execution day...)

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Papa_Tiger
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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#5

Post by Papa_Tiger »

Mike S wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 12:39 pm Under TPC 46.03 you said:
Where can it be posted:
On a property in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public - applies to the whole property, not just a premises (building or portion of a building)
Are you sure that the prohibition applies to the "entire property" for all listed locations? Unless the definition of Premises has changed, or the wording of this statute specifies something along the lines of 'for the purpose of this statute, 'premises' means the entire property', I would think the 'entire property' only applies to "grounds where a school sponsored activity is taking place", and that the sidewalk/walkway, parking lot/parking garages, etc under the MPA would still be allowed (unless said parking lot/sidewalk is within 1,000' of the place of execution, on a scheduled execution day...)
Per my reading, if it is posted on each entrance to the property, it would apply to the whole of the property - not including public sidewalks, driveways etc. covered under MPA.
If it is posted at each entrance to the premises - i.e. each door of a hospital, then the hospital building itself would be properly posted.

That said, the locations off limits by statute in 46.03 are still off limits. You have a defense to prosecution if you do not receive proper notice (personally given oral notification or via sign at EACH entrance to the property or premises) AND if you do not know that the location is off limits.

Hospitals do not need to post 46.03 signs for them to be off limits to unlicensed individuals, but you lose your defense to prosecution if they do or you have been told before not to carry a weapon there. Hospitals would need to post 30.06/7 to legally prohibit license holders from entering (or provide oral notification etc.).
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Maxwell
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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#6

Post by Maxwell »

So, looks like the Constitutional Carry law will require a 30.05 sign for those that are not LTC, but LTC must adhere to the 30.06-3.07 signs. Nice...
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Soccerdad1995
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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#7

Post by Soccerdad1995 »

Maxwell wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:26 pm So, looks like the Constitutional Carry law will require a 30.05 sign for those that are not LTC, but LTC must adhere to the 30.06-3.07 signs. Nice...
If a business has 30.06/.07 signs posted, but no 30.05, then I believe anyone legally carrying a firearm can carry in that location, even if they have an LTC. Just like an off duty LEO can carry past a 30.06 sign even if that LEO has an LTC (which they would need for the GFSZA).

In other words, I don't believe that you must always be carrying under the authority of your LTC just because you are an LTC holder.

IANAL.

yakadoo
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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#8

Post by yakadoo »

The verbiage and signage requirements added in Section 30.05(c) are not required in order to prohibit unlicensed carry of firearms; a simple "No Firearms Allowed" sign will suffice.

"Notice" under Section 30.05 can be as simple as "written communication" (with no further requirements; see 30.05(b)(2)(A)) or "a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden" (see 30.05(b)(2)(C)); compare this to 30.06, where "notice" by "written communication" must contain the precise statutory verbiage and (in the case of signage) must conform to specific formatting and size requirements.
Last edited by yakadoo on Thu May 27, 2021 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Papa_Tiger
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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#9

Post by Papa_Tiger »

yakadoo wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 3:09 pm The verbiage and signage requirements added in Section 30.05(c) are not required in order to prohibit unlicensed carry of firearms; a simple "No Firearms Allowed" sign will suffice.

"Notice" under Section 30.05 can be as simple as "written communication" (with no further requirements; see 30.05(b)(2)(A)) or "a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden" (see 30.05(b)(2)(C)); compare this to 30.06, where "notice" by "written communication" must contain the precise statutory verbiage and (in the case of signage) must conform to specific formatting and size requirements.
That is current law, not what will be in effect on September 1 when HB 1927 takes effect.

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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#10

Post by yakadoo »

Papa_Tiger wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 3:24 pm That is current law, not what will be in effect on September 1 when HB 1927 takes effect.
It is both current law and what will be in effect in September; HB 1927 makes no changes to the definition of "notice" contained in 30.05(b), but merely adds in 30.05(c) another way of providing "notice".

That is, the new kind of "notice" by signage is in addition to, not a replacement for, the original definition in the case of firearm carry.
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ScottDLS
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Re: HB 1927 (Unlicensed Carry) Signs

#11

Post by ScottDLS »

yakadoo wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 3:54 pm
Papa_Tiger wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 3:24 pm That is current law, not what will be in effect on September 1 when HB 1927 takes effect.
It is both current law and what will be in effect in September; HB 1927 makes no changes to the definition of "notice" contained in 30.05(b), but merely adds in 30.05(c) another way of providing "notice".

That is, the new kind of "notice" by signage is in addition to, not a replacement for, the original definition in the case of firearm carry.
And it was never established that 30.05(b) was a way to preclude a person entering under some particular conditions (like if carrying or wearing MAGA hat, or whatever).

Regardless, the Defense to 30.05 for LTC still exists in the law whether they post a newly defined 30.05 sign, a frowny face next to a Beretta silhouette, or a list of rules in 4pt font in their guestbook. If you have a LTC, they have to post 30.06/7 AND give you 30.05 notice (likely through the defined sign or verbally).
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"
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