Gang members with LTC

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nightmare69
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Gang members with LTC

#1

Post by nightmare69 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:08 pm

When I was in a gang training course taught by a local gang detective, he said that our area(also the area of my campus)is starting to see known gang members with valid LTC. The kicker is if they are not involved in any criminal activity there is nothing we can do about it because there isn't any stipulation forbidding gang members from applying for a LTC. Whenever I've had contact with known gangs I try to charge them under TPC 71.02 and add on TPC: 71.028 to enhance it if the D.A. will take it.

Unless there is prior or current criminal activity taking place then our hands are tied as it is not a crime to be a member of a criminal street gang. There needs to be some stipulation that allows LE to be able to revoke their license if we can prove they are a gang member.

MPA has requirement that you cannot carry if you are a gang member. Why was something similar not included in LTC applicants or if they become gang members after receiving their license? We are seeing this mostly with motorcycle gangs and Aryan gangs.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#2

Post by suthdj » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:17 pm

nightmare69 wrote:When I was in a gang training course taught by a local gang detective, he said that our area(also the area of my campus)is starting to see known gang members with valid LTC. The kicker is if they are not involved in any criminal activity there is nothing we can do about it because there isn't any stipulation forbidding gang members from applying for a LTC. Whenever I've had contact with known gangs I try to charge them under TPC 71.02 and add on TPC: 71.028 to enhance it if the D.A. will take it.

Unless there is prior or current criminal activity taking place then our hands are tied as it is not a crime to be a member of a criminal street gang. There needs to be some stipulation that allows LE to be able to revoke their license if we can prove they are a gang member.

MPA has requirement that you cannot carry if you are a gang member. Why was something similar not included in LTC applicants or if they become gang members after receiving their license? We are seeing this mostly with motorcycle gangs and Aryan gangs.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#3

Post by WildBill » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:20 pm

In the United States, the Congress is prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 3 of Article I, Section 9 of the United States Constitution. The states are prohibited from passing ex post facto laws by clause 1 of Article I, Section 10. This is one of the relatively few restrictions that the United States Constitution made to both the power of the federal and state governments before the Fourteenth Amendment. Over the years, when deciding ex post facto cases, the United States Supreme Court has referred repeatedly to its ruling in Calder v. Bull, in which Justice Samuel Chase held that the prohibition applied only to criminal matters, not civil matters, and established four categories of unconstitutional ex post facto laws.[20] The case dealt with the Article I, Section 10, prohibition on ex post facto laws, because it concerned a Connecticut state law.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#4

Post by nightmare69 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:22 pm

It could be a slippery slope but I don't like the fact that fellow LTC holders are Cossacks or Aryan Circle. These gangs are getting smart and blessing in guys with a clean record and then using this to their advantage.

We should be able to at least file a case with DPS and present evidence to their gang affiliation and let them make the call of revoking their license.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#5

Post by flintknapper » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:23 pm

Well I think we both know there is a propensity for mis-use there. IF they can pass a background check and are for the most part lawful then we don't get to pick and choose who can carry. IMO, that is as it should be.

MPA requires no instruction, background check or licensing, so quite a different deal. Frankly, I was a bit surprised it passed with some of the restrictions it has.

I guess I fall on the side of favoring harsh penalties/sentences for violators, more than onerous restrictions limiting who can carry/own weapons.
Last edited by flintknapper on Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#6

Post by joe817 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:25 pm

Wow! Doesn't PC 46.02(unlawful carrying weapons) come into play? :



"PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS
.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if
the person is not:
(1) on the person’s own premises or premises under the person’s control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned
by the person or under the person’s control.

Text of subsection effective on Jan. 1, 2016

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or
watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person’s control at any time
in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view, unless the person is licensed to carry a
handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and the
handgun is carried in a shoulder or belt holster; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is
a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#7

Post by nightmare69 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:28 pm

joe817 wrote:Wow! Doesn't PC 46.02(unlawful carrying weapons) come into play? :



"PC §46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS
.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if
the person is not:
(1) on the person’s own premises or premises under the person’s control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle or watercraft that is owned
by the person or under the person’s control.

Text of subsection effective on Jan. 1, 2016

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or
recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle or
watercraft that is owned by the person or under the person’s control at any time
in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view, unless the person is licensed to carry a
handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and the
handgun is carried in a shoulder or belt holster; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is
a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic or boating;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.
I asked about this, the D.A. won't take it if they have a vaild license. IMO if the law, it's doesn't apply to a LTC holder anyway gang member or not.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#8

Post by flintknapper » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:31 pm

(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities. - See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/ ... yshfZ.dpuf
^^^^^^^^^^^
Could be pretty tough to prove.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#9

Post by TVegas » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:45 pm

flintknapper wrote:
(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities. - See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/ ... yshfZ.dpuf
^^^^^^^^^^^
Could be pretty tough to prove.
I'm not sure what case law may have precedent over that definition, but based solely on the statute, I don't think it would be very hard at all. Going strictly by the statute, all you would have to show is that the group consists of three or more persons, that the group has a common identifying sign or symbol, and that the group has committed crimes together in the past.

I wouldn't be surprised is there is case law that expands on those requirements, but I admittedly have not looked for it.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#10

Post by parabelum » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:12 pm

It's gut wrenching to hear that a gang members get LTC's, but I'm sure it's been happening all across the country, for a long time.
The side that hopefully could be advantageous to LE is that those street rats with no priors, so no fingerprints etc., are now in the database and I'd think that LE could benefit from this.
It's a double edged sword.
On one hand, that filth would carry regardless of the legality. On the other hand, those gang members with CHL's /LTC's would probably be more bold in their dealings and hopefully easier to grab since they are out of shadows now.
It could also mean that they could target others easier.


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Re: Gang members with LTC

#11

Post by Solaris » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:03 pm

Law abiding citizens should have the right to LTC.

And like any LTC, commit a crime, lose your LTC.

Interesting to see how many LTC/gang members have lost LTC as a result of committing crimes.

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Re: Gang members with LTC

#12

Post by nightmare69 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 9:12 pm

flintknapper wrote:
(d) "Criminal street gang" means three or more persons having a common identifying sign or symbol or an identifiable leadership who continuously or regularly associate in the commission of criminal activities. - See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/ ... yshfZ.dpuf
^^^^^^^^^^^
Could be pretty tough to prove.
Issue we have is there is no defenition of a sole "gang member" nor is it a crime to be one.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#13

Post by suthdj » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:03 pm

nightmare69 wrote:It could be a slippery slope but I don't like the fact that fellow LTC holders are Cossacks or Aryan Circle. These gangs are getting smart and blessing in guys with a clean record and then using this to their advantage.

We should be able to at least file a case with DPS and present evidence to their gang affiliation and let them make the call of revoking their license.
I don't disagree with that, I just don't like laws that affect the 99.9% because .01% are misfits. I guess if we have honest law-abiding gang bangers that isn't so bad, however once they cross the line they lose the LTC, and will still carry anyway.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#14

Post by Javier730 » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:15 pm

suthdj wrote:
nightmare69 wrote:It could be a slippery slope but I don't like the fact that fellow LTC holders are Cossacks or Aryan Circle. These gangs are getting smart and blessing in guys with a clean record and then using this to their advantage.

We should be able to at least file a case with DPS and present evidence to their gang affiliation and let them make the call of revoking their license.
I don't disagree with that, I just don't like laws that affect the 99.9% because .01% are misfits. I guess if we have honest law-abiding gang bangers that isn't so bad, however once they cross the line they lose the LTC, and will still carry anyway.
:iagree:

I don't like that idea at all. Sounds to me kinda like the no guns for those on the no fly list idea. I bet the people who create and add people to the "no fly list" would also have influence on the "gang member" list.
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Re: Gang members with LTC

#15

Post by Pawpaw » Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:42 pm

Based on the stats of crimes committed by LTC holders, I would say this is a complete non-problem. :tiphat:
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