Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

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MadMonkey
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#16

Post by MadMonkey »

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:14 am
AndyC1911 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:44 pm We've all seen inexperienced shooters try to shoot with a laser and it didn't help them :mrgreen:

Red dots are no different and the sole advantage they might have (over traditional iron sights) is a single plane of focus.

Everything still comes down to trigger-control once the sight - in whatever form it takes - is aligned, so my opinion is allow them (and lasers and the kitchen sink if they want).
The only time I’ve ever a shot a handgun with a laser sight, I was already a fairly experienced shooter, and I gave it up. My wife’s first pistol was a S&W 642 with Crimson Trace grips that I gave her for Valentine’s Day back in 2008. For the life of me, I could NOT stop chasing that red dot all over the target. When I turned the daggum thing off and went back to using the rudimentary open sights, the problem went away completely. I’ve avoided lasers on handguns ever since.

I have yet to shoot a pistol with an RDS, but my sense is that it would be a lot more like using irons than it would be like using a laser. I could be wrong, but that’s my impression. For the record, I love a RDS on a carbine; and out to at least 50 yards, I shoot a carbine with an RDS about as well as I do with a magnified optic, and a little better with an RDS than I do with irons. So at typical handgun distances—say 25 yards and under—I don’t think an RDS-mounted pistol would be that big of a problem. Again, I could be wrong, but that’s my impression.
Both lasers and RDSs clearly show every little twitch and movement of your pistol, but for me it's much more natural to use a red dot than a laser.

Presentation is EVERYTHING though. Get that right and you won't have to search for the dot.

I have a couple of pistols with red dots and will do my best to keep purchasing and using them. I shoot far better with them and always had issues with irons.
“Beware the fury of a patient man.” - John Dryden
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#17

Post by The Annoyed Man »

MadMonkey wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:41 pm
The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:14 am
AndyC1911 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:44 pm We've all seen inexperienced shooters try to shoot with a laser and it didn't help them :mrgreen:

Red dots are no different and the sole advantage they might have (over traditional iron sights) is a single plane of focus.

Everything still comes down to trigger-control once the sight - in whatever form it takes - is aligned, so my opinion is allow them (and lasers and the kitchen sink if they want).
The only time I’ve ever a shot a handgun with a laser sight, I was already a fairly experienced shooter, and I gave it up. My wife’s first pistol was a S&W 642 with Crimson Trace grips that I gave her for Valentine’s Day back in 2008. For the life of me, I could NOT stop chasing that red dot all over the target. When I turned the daggum thing off and went back to using the rudimentary open sights, the problem went away completely. I’ve avoided lasers on handguns ever since.

I have yet to shoot a pistol with an RDS, but my sense is that it would be a lot more like using irons than it would be like using a laser. I could be wrong, but that’s my impression. For the record, I love a RDS on a carbine; and out to at least 50 yards, I shoot a carbine with an RDS about as well as I do with a magnified optic, and a little better with an RDS than I do with irons. So at typical handgun distances—say 25 yards and under—I don’t think an RDS-mounted pistol would be that big of a problem. Again, I could be wrong, but that’s my impression.
Both lasers and RDSs clearly show every little twitch and movement of your pistol, but for me it's much more natural to use a red dot than a laser.

Presentation is EVERYTHING though. Get that right and you won't have to search for the dot.

I have a couple of pistols with red dots and will do my best to keep purchasing and using them. I shoot far better with them and always had issues with irons.
For me, I don’t think that’s the issue……because my sight picture over iron sights doesn’t move much at all, resulting in acceptable groups. And sight presentation is just a matter of repetitive training. I figure that a RDS, being in roughly the same focal plane as my iron sights, wouldn’t move around relative to my eyeball anymore than the irons do. In other words, the group at the target end should be roughly similar as one produced with iron sights. But with a laser dot, because it is projected onto the target surface, every tiny movement at the gun end results in a lot of movement of the dot at the target end, and my eyes begin to "chase the dot around", followed by corresponding movement of my sight picture to align it with the ever-moving dot. I can’t seem to break myself of it. It’s like trying to frame a house, where you’re out of plumb by only 1/4” at one corner, and 2” at the opposite corner. The effect of movement is amplified. And since I’m trying to place the laser dot on the desired POA but it keeps moving around, my adjustments to bring it back get bigger and bigger. With an RDS, that point of red light isn’t being projected onto the target, so it’s movements relative to my eye would appear less amplified, and therefore easier to control……if that makes sense. At least, that’s how it seems to me.
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MadMonkey
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#18

Post by MadMonkey »

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 11:23 am
MadMonkey wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:41 pm
The Annoyed Man wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:14 am
AndyC1911 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:44 pm We've all seen inexperienced shooters try to shoot with a laser and it didn't help them :mrgreen:

Red dots are no different and the sole advantage they might have (over traditional iron sights) is a single plane of focus.

Everything still comes down to trigger-control once the sight - in whatever form it takes - is aligned, so my opinion is allow them (and lasers and the kitchen sink if they want).
The only time I’ve ever a shot a handgun with a laser sight, I was already a fairly experienced shooter, and I gave it up. My wife’s first pistol was a S&W 642 with Crimson Trace grips that I gave her for Valentine’s Day back in 2008. For the life of me, I could NOT stop chasing that red dot all over the target. When I turned the daggum thing off and went back to using the rudimentary open sights, the problem went away completely. I’ve avoided lasers on handguns ever since.

I have yet to shoot a pistol with an RDS, but my sense is that it would be a lot more like using irons than it would be like using a laser. I could be wrong, but that’s my impression. For the record, I love a RDS on a carbine; and out to at least 50 yards, I shoot a carbine with an RDS about as well as I do with a magnified optic, and a little better with an RDS than I do with irons. So at typical handgun distances—say 25 yards and under—I don’t think an RDS-mounted pistol would be that big of a problem. Again, I could be wrong, but that’s my impression.
Both lasers and RDSs clearly show every little twitch and movement of your pistol, but for me it's much more natural to use a red dot than a laser.

Presentation is EVERYTHING though. Get that right and you won't have to search for the dot.

I have a couple of pistols with red dots and will do my best to keep purchasing and using them. I shoot far better with them and always had issues with irons.
I figure that a RDS, being in roughly the same focal plane as my iron sights, wouldn’t move around relative to my eyeball anymore than the irons do.
Heh... I thought that too. The dot moves as much as your iron sight alignment, just as a laser does, but the perception is MUCH different. I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion after trying a pistol RDS :evil2:
“Beware the fury of a patient man.” - John Dryden
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#19

Post by AndyC1911 »

I just acquired a Vortex Venom to mount onto my Ruger .22 pistol - an OuterImpact plate (to replace the picatinny rail and get the sight lower) should be here later today.

Edit: Got it and installed; a lot sleeker than the Pic rail would have been:

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Should make for a nice little bunny-buster.
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#20

Post by MadMonkey »

AndyC1911 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:39 pm I just acquired a Vortex Venom to mount onto my Ruger .22 pistol - an OuterImpact plate (to replace the picatinny rail and get the sight lower) should be here later today.

Edit: Got it and installed; a lot sleeker than the Pic rail would have been:

Image

Should make for a nice little bunny-buster.
I shot my first prairie dog with a MKIV/red dot last year :thumbs2:
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#21

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

I do think it's time to allow a RDS on handguns for the LTC qual. A sign of the times is the fact that the Houston Police Dept. requires all new academy cadets to graduate with a RDS on their handgun. I asked an HPD firearms trainer how new cadets were doing with red dot training and he said their experience was shockingly good.

The fact that a major police department is not only allowing a RDS, but requiring it, is a major factor that DPS should consider.

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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#22

Post by FastCarry »

Hurst PD replaced their Kimber 1911s with Glocks equipped with TLR1s and Aimpoint Acros

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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#23

Post by Greybeard »

I think we should all bring this issue to DPS' attention at upcoming renewal sessions, which I do on the afternoon of Aug. 24. Continued no-gos on lasers could be understandable as even the green ones are virtually worthless in the daylight.

FWIW, I put a semi-pricey red dot on a "training" Hellcat last year. Much like the lasers (which i initially opposed many years ago), red dots on pistols do take some time to get used to for those of us so acclimated to using nothing but conventional sights.
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#24

Post by AndyC1911 »

Some people, of course, can misuse any tool:

"Woman accidentally shoots friend when using laser sight on handgun to play with cat"

https://on.wisn.com/3g1kUNa
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#25

Post by Scott B. »

Greybeard wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:18 pm I think we should all bring this issue to DPS' attention at upcoming renewal sessions, which I do on the afternoon of Aug. 24. Continued no-gos on lasers could be understandable as even the green ones are virtually worthless in the daylight.

FWIW, I put a semi-pricey red dot on a "training" Hellcat last year. Much like the lasers (which i initially opposed many years ago), red dots on pistols do take some time to get used to for those of us so acclimated to using nothing but conventional sights.
I'm in the morning session that day and will try to bring it up.

Agree on lasers. Other than playing call of duty, the only defensive pistol use I see for them is on a red gun, when showing students how they flinch when pulling the trigger.
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#26

Post by Greybeard »

Asst. Chief Janson Hester was the first main speaker at the afternoon class I attended on the afternoon of Aug. 24. He spoke for 10 or 15 minutes - including a lot about NOT getting into HB1927 - then opened things up for questions. So, I inquired to see if they were considering allowing the use of red dot sights for the demo of proficiency. At first a clear answer was not forthcoming, but after a couple of other instructors chimed in, he concluded that lasers and magnification were definitely a no, but that red dots should be ok, that they were similar to the Aimpoint on his rifle.
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#27

Post by AF-Odin »

Greybeard.

I was at the same session as you and that was also my take-away from his comments of no magnification, no laser, but RDS probably OK. Later that day, I sent an email to RSD asking for written confirmation of Asst. Chief Hester's comments (using the address they had that sent us our confirmation since they stated that was more likely to be answered quickly). As of this morning no reply. We shall see. Personally, until I see it in writing, I will remain with current guidance, but hope they will answer soon. :tiphat:
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#28

Post by Neverpanic1 »

Any updates on Red Dot usage for qualifications ? I ran across this and thought I'd ask ?
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#29

Post by Mike S »

The Trooper that was the lead instructor for the First Responder Instructor Course said that they are now allowed (made a comment such as "bringing the material up to the 21st Century" or something like that).

The use of lasers or scopes are still prohibited for use during qualification as falling under the definition of 'optical enhancing devices'.

We were allowed the use of red dots during the pre-qualification shoot & during any of the range drills during that course. It would be great for the RSD to make that clarification during this year's Instructor Renewal, and/or a blanket email prior to that.
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Re: Time to modernize qual - allow Red Dots

#30

Post by troglodyte »

We were told the same at our FRC.
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