Lever-action pistol

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skeathley
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Lever-action pistol

#1

Post by skeathley » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:59 pm

Is a lever-action pistol legal for the LTC? A student called, has a Rossi Ranch Hand. He says it is classified as a pistol, and can be carried in a holster. I have not seen one since the 1960s.

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:confused5
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flechero
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Re: Lever-action pistol

#2

Post by flechero » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:25 pm

Fist off I don't know the right answer...

While its legally considered a handgun (that's probably what matters) I don't think it's practical or fills the intent of the LTC application. An AR "pistol" is much the same, IMO. Lots of things can be holstered. ...lol


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Re: Lever-action pistol

#3

Post by skeathley » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:39 pm

True, but there are a lot of guns that are hardly concealable: CZ75, M&P .45, 6 inch .357 Magnum, etc.
This can technically be fired with one hand, which is the State definition of a handgun. I would have said no, but don't think I am justified in doing so. It's not much more absurd than an 8 inch single-action .22 revolver.

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Re: Lever-action pistol

#4

Post by Pawpaw » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:20 pm

I can't think of a single reason why you couldn't.

Think about it a minute:

You can legally carry a pistol, either openly or concealed, if you have an LTC.

You can legally carry a long gun, either openly or concealed, whether you have an LTC or not.'

So, if you have an LTC, what law would you be breaking?
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams

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skeathley
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Re: Lever-action pistol

#5

Post by skeathley » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:14 pm

Carrying it is not an issue. My question is whether it is acceptable for use in the Proficiency. It is neither a semi-automatic nor a revolver, and looks like an SBR, but it seems to be classified as a pistol. It can be fired with one hand, which fits the Penal Code definition, although a person would typically use both hands, same as most other handguns.

I don't want to deny him without a valid reason, but haven't found one yet.

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Re: Lever-action pistol

#6

Post by rotor » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:35 am

Previous law required testing with a semi-auto which allowed semi-auto or revolver carry. Previous law said if revolver was used for test than revolver only could be carried. Present law says either can be used to qualify and either can be carried. I would not classify a lever action pistol as a revolver or a semi-auto and therefore in my opinion it could not be used for test. My opinion only and I could not find any support beyond what I have presented.

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Re: Lever-action pistol

#7

Post by rob777 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:08 am

I think there might be a distinction between "can" be fired with one hand vs the definition that says it's "designed" to be fired with one hand. Watched guys on the tv shot Top Shot a few years back firing AKs with one hand. Also agree with the couple of comments that it's not a semi-auto or revolver so doesn't quite meet the requirements.
I'm stilling debating (in my own head) whether AR 'pistols' should/could be allowed for the proficiency test...
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Re: Lever-action pistol

#8

Post by skeathley » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:12 pm

I decided to disallow this gun for the Proficiency. It violates the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

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Re: Lever-action pistol

#9

Post by twomillenium » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:47 pm

I read nothing about the spirit of the law in the text of the handbook. If it is a pistol and is 22 caliber or bigger then it can be used. The only decision I see an instructor having is, can it be done safely without endangering others around them. If they are not proficient in the handling of the pistol especially (an unusual style) you do not have to give them another chance, just tell them to use something else. I was told by one DPS instructor that a student could use a two shot derringer, but they would have the same time constraints as anyone else.
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Re: Lever-action pistol

#10

Post by cmgee67 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:12 pm

A friend of mine took a class that had a guy in it use an AK pistol and the instructor didn’t care. The instructor said it’s semi auto considered a pistol so why not.
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Re: Lever-action pistol

#11

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:56 pm

An AR pistol used to be legal for concealed carry if you have a license, so I don’t see why a lever action pistol wouldn’t be legal.
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Re: Lever-action pistol

#12

Post by srothstein » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:17 am

I am not an instructor, so I could very well be wrong, but I think the lever action pistol should be allowed if the person can qualify with it. Part of my reasoning is that I don't recall the law specifying revolver or semi-auto. IIRC, it specified semi-auto or non-semi-auto. This is a slight but possibly important difference in the rules. We all thought of the NSA class as revolver, but I think the law used the other term.

Consider where you would classify a pistol like the Thompson Contender. This is a single shot bolt action handgun firing rifle calibers. Whether you would allow it or not, which class of license would have been required to carry it?

The second reason I think it should have been allowed is that there is nothing I can find in the law now on classification of the pistol. There is no reason under current law to disallow any pistol that does not have optic enhancers.
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Re: Lever-action pistol

#13

Post by Richbirdhunter » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:11 am

Here’s how Rossi describes their product, Rossi ranch hand lever action pistol-the model 92 ranch hand pistol has a lever action with large loop. 12” barrel length and a overall length of 24” comes stick with buckhorn sights, blue finish and a hardwood stock.

I can see the students side of this, it’s hard to argue that this one is not a pistol. I wouldn’t use it to qualify, but I can’t see any legal reason to tell him no.

( I’m not an instructor)
Disclaimer: Anything I state can not be applied to 100% of all situations. Sometimes it's ok to speak in general terms.

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Re: Lever-action pistol

#14

Post by warnmar10 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:12 am

IANAI but:
CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS
Sec. 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
Ask him to demonstrate proficiency with one hand. If he can aim, shoot and re-cock 5 rounds in the allotted time using only one hand let him use it on the test.

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Re: Lever-action pistol

#15

Post by Jusme » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:31 am

warnmar10 wrote:IANAI but:
CHAPTER 46. WEAPONS
Sec. 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
(5) "Handgun" means any firearm that is designed, made, or adapted to be fired with one hand.
Ask him to demonstrate proficiency with one hand. If he can aim, shoot and re-cock 5 rounds in the allotted time using only one hand let him use it on the test.

There are no regulations, in the LTC firearms proficiency test, that require any gun be fired with only one hand. To require that, of someone, with a non-traditional "pistol" seems unfair. JMHO
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