Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

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Vol Texan
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Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#1

Post by Vol Texan » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:27 pm

I'm scheduled to take the LTC Instructor course in Florence in late December. I received my information packet (email) this week.

One of the attachments states the following (there are several more line items, but I'm only including the two that I'm asking questions about here):
Student must provide the following equipment:
  • A semi-automatic AND a non semi-automatic handgun;
    • Must be at least .38 caliber
    • Revolver must not have “push off” on single action
So, here are my two questions:
  1. Now that SB263 has passed, does that apply only to LTC students, or does it apply to Instructor students as well?
    (I'd never carry a .22, of course, but I can hit center mass with it all day long.)
  2. What does "'push off' on single action" mean?
  3. Follow-up question: may I shoot my SA / DA revolver in single action for the test, or must I fire all shots double-action?
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#2

Post by troglodyte » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:43 pm

Instructors are held to a higher standard. Instructors must shoot both tests and score 90% or better whereas the students do not. I see the .38 minimum caliber as just a higher standard for the instructors.

Push off is when the hammer, in the cocked position, can be pushed forward with out the trigger being pulled.

You can shoot your revolver single action if you choose and can. I had a gentleman in my class that shot a SA Colt during qualifications and did it well.
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#3

Post by Vol Texan » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:10 pm

troglodyte wrote:Instructors are held to a higher standard. Instructors must shoot both tests and score 90% or better whereas the students do not. I see the .38 minimum caliber as just a higher standard for the instructors.

Push off is when the hammer, in the cocked position, can be pushed forward with out the trigger being pulled.

You can shoot your revolver single action if you choose and can. I had a gentleman in my class that shot a SA Colt during qualifications and did it well.
Thanks for the quick response. I knew that instructors are held to a higher standard (90% instead of 70%), but I think that was always true. In the past, there was not a higher caliber requirement for instructors, so I figured that if it lowered for one, it would lower for everyone.

No problem. I can shoot my 9mm just fine - I was just wondering if it had actually changed or not for instructors.
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When those fail, aim for center mass.

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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#4

Post by jmorris » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:01 pm

There were a couple people in my class that thought they wouldn't be able to shoot their 9s because 9mm is actually 0.354".
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#5

Post by Liberty » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:59 pm

jmorris wrote:There were a couple people in my class that thought they wouldn't be able to shoot their 9s because 9mm is actually 0.354".
Just curious, cause I don't ever plan on being an instructor, but ...
If they explicitly declare that it must be .38 Caliber or above, why is it that 9mm is actually allowed? Is there an exception written elsewhere in the rules?
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#6

Post by troglodyte » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:20 pm

A .38 is actually .357” so I guess they let the 0.003” slide.
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#7

Post by CleverNickname » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:26 pm

troglodyte wrote:A .38 is actually .357” so I guess they let the 0.003” slide.
.023"

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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#8

Post by troglodyte » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:13 pm

CleverNickname wrote:
troglodyte wrote:A .38 is actually .357” so I guess they let the 0.003” slide.
.023"
.38 (0.357”) - 9mm (0.354”) = 0.003”
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#9

Post by Middle Age Russ » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:43 am

I always understood 9MM, in the case of the 9X19, Parabellum or Luger, to have a nominal bullet diameter of 0.355 - 0.356". This compares to the nominal .38 Special or .357 Magnum bullet diameter of 0.357 - 0.358". So to me the difference has always been between 0.001" and 0.003". For qualification caliber (chambering) requirements, such a small difference can easily be ignored, particularly when the energy of the loadings in 9MM are sometimes greater than those in .38 Special, not to mention earlier .38 S&W loads which would technically meet the minimum caliber requirements.
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#10

Post by Vol Texan » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:02 am

Image


:biggrinjester:
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When those fail, aim for center mass.

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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#11

Post by CleverNickname » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:56 am

troglodyte wrote:
CleverNickname wrote:
troglodyte wrote:A .38 is actually .357” so I guess they let the 0.003” slide.
.023"
.38 (0.357”) - 9mm (0.354”) = 0.003”
If the legal requirement is a bullet that actually measures at least .38" across, not just a cartridge with a number that's equal or greater than ".38" in the name, then you'd need to subtract the actual diameter of the smaller cartridge from .38, as I did. .38-.357=.023, for .38 Special, so if DPS allows using a .38 Special they're letting .023" slide, not .003".

If the legal requirement is only that the cartridge have a number that's equal or greater than ".38" in the name, then I want someone to make a wildcat .17 rimfire named the .45 Loophole. :)

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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#12

Post by jmorris » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:49 pm

Liberty wrote:
jmorris wrote:There were a couple people in my class that thought they wouldn't be able to shoot their 9s because 9mm is actually 0.354".
Just curious, cause I don't ever plan on being an instructor, but ...
If they explicitly declare that it must be .38 Caliber or above, why is it that 9mm is actually allowed? Is there an exception written elsewhere in the rules?
I think because they are using .38 as a size class, not as a strict limit. For example, the caption for this photo was "Examples of 9mm/.38 cartridges".

Image
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#13

Post by Liberty » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:17 am

jmorris wrote:
Liberty wrote:
jmorris wrote:There were a couple people in my class that thought they wouldn't be able to shoot their 9s because 9mm is actually 0.354".
Just curious, cause I don't ever plan on being an instructor, but ...
If they explicitly declare that it must be .38 Caliber or above, why is it that 9mm is actually allowed? Is there an exception written elsewhere in the rules?
I think because they are using .38 as a size class, not as a strict limit. For example, the caption for this photo was "Examples of 9mm/.38 cartridges".
Kewl chart !! 9mm still smaller than .38 a The DPS and all the instructors I know are real sticklers for rules. One foot over a stop line or 2 miles over the speed limit is no excuse. One instructor wouldn't let a guy qualify with his lever action pistol even though it met all the legal specifications , and yet instructors routinely qualify on a questionable caliber. I'm sure that the folks at DPS don't mind, I don't understand why the move from .32 cal though. it just makes more sense. Less ambiguity. The whole idea of instructor qualifying to me is silly anyway. Marksmanship has little to do with instructor skills knowledge of Texas laws, Safety abilities or any other important instructor skills. These days most people won't bother qualifying with the gun that they actually carry every day. If it weren't so much fun, I think most instructors would complain about the silliness of it all.

I am just observing and taking notes, I don't really care because it doesn't affect me. I'm not an instructor and have no desire to be one.
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#14

Post by Keith B » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:25 am

.38 caliber, 9mm, ,357 are all basically .38" in diameter. I believe they are looking more for the size hole punched than how much recoil there is. Much easier scoring with bigger hole.
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Re: Minimum Caliber for Instructor Proficiency

#15

Post by skeathley » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:23 pm

I already went through this with DPS. That is a typo. Students can shoot .22, but instructors have to shoot at least .32. They had a lot of trouble getting a determination on that, so I would err on the side of caution and shoot 9mm or above and .38. There could not be a complaint about that.

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