1911 C&L VS SA

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Tex1961
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1911 C&L VS SA

#1

Post by Tex1961 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:54 am

Just a random thought... I've never met anyone who would carry a 1911 cocked, but not locked... But everyone is quite comfortable carrying a striker fired semiautomatic cocked and not locked... Heck, at least a 1911 has a grip safety.... Dunno what made this thought come into my wee little brain but just thought it curious.....
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crazy2medic
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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#2

Post by crazy2medic » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:02 am

Yes it's called Glock leg!
Since the Glock doesn't have a safety those that have one are relying on the long trigger pull
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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#3

Post by oohrah » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:16 am

I thought a Glock was a double action? Therefore not technically "cocked", the striker is not "ready to fall".

A 1911 is true single action, and therefore has to be cocked, just like a SA revolver. This causes fear among ignorants who think the hammer might accidentally fall. However, a 1911 "cocked & locked" has at least two safeties (thumb and grip), which are very reliable.

Regardless, neither gun is safe if you don't observe good trigger discipline.
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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#4

Post by cmgee67 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:17 pm

Glocks have safeties. They are internal. And external. You have the trigger safety and safety plunger which is a piece of steel keeping the firing pin from going forward. The gun is not fully cocked. The trigger pull further compresses the spring and as the trigger moves the rear they safety plunger moves up and allows the striker to go forward and strike the primer. Glocks and other striker fired guns are very safe. You can train someone to be safer with a Glock then a 1911. You don’t have to worry about a grip safety because what if you don’t get the proper grip? You don’t have to worry about a thumb safety because if your a new or seasoned shooter and your not used to one well guess what? You will forget to depress it. You perform how you train. Now 1911 is a fine gun but it’s much simpler to pick up and pull trigger then get rid of two external safeties before firing.


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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#5

Post by strogg » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:58 pm

The three carry guns I carry the most are a Glock 43x, 1911, and Beretta M9. For the M9, I carry it hammer down, no safety (It's decocker only). When holstering, I put my thumb over the hammer. If it can't go back, it won't fire. I feel very confident when holstering. With the 1911, I understand the mechanics behind it. I will always holster it with the back of my thumb pushing up on the safety. There's no way for the hammer to fall as long as the safety is blocking the travel of the internals. I also feel very confident when holstering that. As for the Glock... I always worry. Any unseen obstruction in the trigger guard could make the gun go off. For that, I feel 1000x better holstering it before I put the holster on my body.

For the cocked and not locked 1911, I would never do that. The 1911 trigger is touchy, and it doesn't take much to push the grip safety in. Also, the grip safety only stops the travel of the trigger. It doesn't stop the travel of the seer/hammer. Only the thumb safety does that. Lastly, the thumb safety is exactly where I put my thumb when firing, so it'll be hard for me to forget to disengage the safety.

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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#6

Post by E10 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:52 pm

cmgee67 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:17 pm
Glocks have safeties. They are internal. And external. You have the trigger safety and safety plunger which is a piece of steel keeping the firing pin from going forward. The gun is not fully cocked. The trigger pull further compresses the spring and as the trigger moves the rear they safety plunger moves up and allows the striker to go forward and strike the primer. Glocks and other striker fired guns are very safe. You can train someone to be safer with a Glock then a 1911. You don’t have to worry about a grip safety because what if you don’t get the proper grip? You don’t have to worry about a thumb safety because if your a new or seasoned shooter and your not used to one well guess what? You will forget to depress it. You perform how you train. Now 1911 is a fine gun but it’s much simpler to pick up and pull trigger then get rid of two external safeties before firing.
Then why is "Glock leg" a thing and "1911 leg" isn't? The idea that Glocks are "safer" and require less training is probably why "Glock leg" occurs. Training is of paramount importance no matter what weapon is involved.

The Glock trigger safety ain't a safety, it's another trigger. 1911s have internal and external safeties that do the same thing as the Glock's safeties. While I'm holstering my 1911 (or my Beretta, for that matter) I have the thumb safety on and no matter what wanders into the trigger guard, the pistol ain't going off. Yeah, I have to train to ensure the safety's on, and to switch it off before shooting, but that feature is not even possible with a Glock. And besides, life's too short to shoot ugly guns.


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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#7

Post by flechero » Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:39 pm

Tex1961 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:54 am
Just a random thought... I've never met anyone who would carry a 1911 cocked, but not locked...
As a south paw, I've knocked my safety off plenty of times. Not on purpose, mind you, but no issue as the gun still has a grip safety and I practice good trigger finger discipline.

Remember that Mr. Browning designed the gun without a manual safety- it was the US Cavalry that asked for it to be added.


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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#8

Post by flechero » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:00 pm

cmgee67 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:17 pm
You can train someone to be safer with a Glock then a 1911. You don’t have to worry about a grip safety because what if you don’t get the proper grip? You don’t have to worry about a thumb safety because if your a new or seasoned shooter and your not used to one well guess what?
OK, I have to politely disagree.

If 2 newbs picked up guns and unboxed them and holstered for carry- your safety (grip and thumb) arguments would be valid. Of course, they'd be untrained.

Being safe has little to nothing to do with the gun, it's the person holding it. 2nd- a properly tuned grip safety is off if you are holding the gun, period. Yes there are some poorly tuned GS's on factory guns but that aren't suitable for carry or combat. Addressing those are part of the set up of the gun. 3rd- if you train the 1911 guy, he won't "forget" to go safety off. Going safety off is part of going to the trigger... Just like coming off the trigger and going safety on.

:tiphat:


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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#9

Post by Jose_in_Dallas » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:02 pm

Tex1961 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:54 am
Just a random thought... I've never met anyone who would carry a 1911 cocked, but not locked... But everyone is quite comfortable carrying a striker fired semiautomatic cocked and not locked... Heck, at least a 1911 has a grip safety.... Dunno what made this thought come into my wee little brain but just thought it curious.....
My first gun was a 1911 and I remember one time accidentally have an ND when I tried to drop the hammer (slowly) with a round chambered. Never did that with a Glock. But also for a long time I wouldn't carry a round chambered in my Glock because I didn't feel comfortable because it had no "safety". I'm guessing you know that some striker fired guns do have manual safeties (S&W M&P and Sig M18 to name a couple) and one even has a trigger and grip safety, and an option manual safety (SA XD).

Some of my friends who own guns won't carry them loaded because they don't feel comfortable with it. It all comes to training and familiarity with the firearm. For those that have experienced "Glock Leg", I'm betting that it's all about their unfamiliarity with carrying a "Glock" (or similar firearm) and lack of training.

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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#10

Post by AdioSS » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:58 am

Jose_in_Dallas wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:02 pm
My first gun was a 1911 and I remember one time accidentally have an ND when I tried to drop the hammer (slowly) with a round chambered. Never did that with a Glock. But also for a long time I wouldn't carry a round chambered in my Glock because I didn't feel comfortable because it had no "safety". I'm guessing you know that some striker fired guns do have manual safeties (S&W M&P and Sig M18 to name a couple) and one even has a trigger and grip safety, and an option manual safety (SA XD).

Some of my friends who own guns won't carry them loaded because they don't feel comfortable with it. It all comes to training and familiarity with the firearm. For those that have experienced "Glock Leg", I'm betting that it's all about their unfamiliarity with carrying a "Glock" (or similar firearm) and lack of training.
Why lower the hammer on a live round in a 1911?

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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#11

Post by oohrah » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:07 am

I don't know if all 1911s have this feature, but I know on a M1911, there is a half-cock setting on the hammer that actually locks the hammer and prevents its falling even if all safeties are off. To get there tho, you have to lower the hammer first. If you do this on a chambered round, you take the risk of an ND.

However, if you are able to get the hammer all the way down safely, it just rests on the firing pin, but the pin does not contact the primer, it is too short. The firing pin works on the momentum principle, flying forward when struck. This another safety feature.
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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#12

Post by Jose_in_Dallas » Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:12 pm

AdioSS wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:58 am
Why lower the hammer on a live round in a 1911?
oohrah wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:07 am
I don't know if all 1911s have this feature, but I know on a M1911, there is a half-cock setting on the hammer that actually locks the hammer and prevents its falling even if all safeties are off. To get there tho, you have to lower the hammer first. If you do this on a chambered round, you take the risk of an ND.

However, if you are able to get the hammer all the way down safely, it just rests on the firing pin, but the pin does not contact the primer, it is too short. The firing pin works on the momentum principle, flying forward when struck. This another safety feature.
I was young and dumb and didn't know any better. I was trying to lower it to the half cock and it slipped. Fortunately I had it pointed in a safe direction. I never did that again.

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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#13

Post by AdioSS » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:42 am

There was a time when I thought it was a good idea to use a spurless NP3 (nickel Teflon) coated hammer in an application that requires me to thumb the hammer down on a loaded chamber. That only lasted a day before I realized it was a dumb idea & switched it for a normal hammer.

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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#14

Post by 03Lightningrocks » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:55 am

E10 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:52 pm
cmgee67 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:17 pm
Glocks have safeties. They are internal. And external. You have the trigger safety and safety plunger which is a piece of steel keeping the firing pin from going forward. The gun is not fully cocked. The trigger pull further compresses the spring and as the trigger moves the rear they safety plunger moves up and allows the striker to go forward and strike the primer. Glocks and other striker fired guns are very safe. You can train someone to be safer with a Glock then a 1911. You don’t have to worry about a grip safety because what if you don’t get the proper grip? You don’t have to worry about a thumb safety because if your a new or seasoned shooter and your not used to one well guess what? You will forget to depress it. You perform how you train. Now 1911 is a fine gun but it’s much simpler to pick up and pull trigger then get rid of two external safeties before firing.
Then why is "Glock leg" a thing and "1911 leg" isn't? The idea that Glocks are "safer" and require less training is probably why "Glock leg" occurs. Training is of paramount importance no matter what weapon is involved.

The Glock trigger safety ain't a safety, it's another trigger. 1911s have internal and external safeties that do the same thing as the Glock's safeties. While I'm holstering my 1911 (or my Beretta, for that matter) I have the thumb safety on and no matter what wanders into the trigger guard, the pistol ain't going off. Yeah, I have to train to ensure the safety's on, and to switch it off before shooting, but that feature is not even possible with a Glock. And besides, life's too short to shoot ugly guns.
The law of averages plays a big part. Far More Glocks are carried than 1911's. By a huge number. Police departments across the counry issue Glocks as their standard issue hand gun. None issue the 1911 that I know of. So it is only natural that we will have more NC's with Glocks than with 1911's.

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Re: 1911 C&L VS SA

#15

Post by G.A. Heath » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:09 am

First off: let's address the lowering of the hammer onto a loaded chamber with a 1911. If you slip up putting the pistol into this state it can and likely will go off (As noted above). Additionally it is possible for some guns to fire when the hammer is struck in this state (Some, but not all. In fact so few it is hardly worth noting).

Second: Lowering the hammer to the 'half-cock' notch. The half-cock notch is a safety device designed to catch and prevent the hammer from falling in the event that the hammer is released by the sear somehow. It was never designed to function as for long-term engagement. You slip up putting the pistol into this state it can still fire, additionally it can cause wear/damage to surfaces in an unusual manner.

Third: Hammer back, safety off. This is absolutely as bad as the previous two forms for carrying a 1911. The trigger on a 1911 is a short crisp trigger that can easily be pressed causing the gun to fire. Carry like this if want to be afflicted with the 1911 version of 'Glock leg'.

Fourth: the safety can be disengaged while holstered. This is a legitimate concern, but a non-issue if you carry in a quality holster that is in good repair and leave the gun alone unless you need it. Once holstered the safety of a 1911 becomes secondary to the holster protecting the trigger.

Fifth: Glocks have X number of internal safeties. Marketing hype, these are safety devices much like the half cock notch of the 1911. The 'trigger safety' is the only device on a stock Glock that can potentially be called a safety device, however this 'safety' is often defeated by foreign objects like shirt tales while the the gun is being holstered and is therefore of questionable value.

Finally: 1911, Glock, Sig, Revolver, ect. are all dependent on the single most important safety device that all firearms have had since their invention and that would be the one between the operator's ears. Proper training, proper practice, proper habits, and more importantly proper discipline are the true keys to firearm safety. Chose the platform that you are most comfortable with, shoot the best, and can afford then carry it.
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