What to expect in Harris County for Car-Carry without CHL

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

Moderator: carlson1


txinvestigator
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 4331
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 6:40 pm
Location: DFW area
Contact:

#16

Post by txinvestigator »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:I

As to which agencies will make the arrests, the only information I have is that the Houston Police Dept. has publically stated that its officers will arrest anyone carrying a handgun without a CHL, based upon Rosenthal's interpretation of the new law.
I would be very interested in reading that. What I DID read was that officers would make arrests for UCW as per the law, and that if a person did not meet the traveling requirement they were SUBJECT to arrest. I have seen NO reference that they would follow Rosenthal's interpretation.

If I am wrong I 'll eat a big plate a crow and admit it. ;)
*CHL Instructor*


"Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final"- Bill Jordan

Remember those who died, remember those who killed them.
User avatar

Charles L. Cotton
Site Admin
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 17787
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Friendswood, TX
Contact:

#17

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

txinvestigator wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:I

As to which agencies will make the arrests, the only information I have is that the Houston Police Dept. has publically stated that its officers will arrest anyone carrying a handgun without a CHL, based upon Rosenthal's interpretation of the new law.
I would be very interested in reading that. What I DID read was that officers would make arrests for UCW as per the law, and that if a person did not meet the traveling requirement they were SUBJECT to arrest. I have seen NO reference that they would follow Rosenthal's interpretation.

If I am wrong I 'll eat a big plate a crow and admit it. ;)
I didn't see anything in print from HPD. I saw a TV interview with HPD Chief Hurtt where he said HPD would make UCW arrests, based upon the Harris County DA's "evaluation" of the "new traveling law."

Chas.
User avatar

Charles L. Cotton
Site Admin
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 17787
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Friendswood, TX
Contact:

#18

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Here is a copy and link to an HPD press release on the new "traveling presumption." I'm sure there are others, but I don't have time to look for them now. It does not contain a reference to reliance upon Rosenthal's interpretation that was in Hurtt's TV appearance, but it makes it clear that 1) the presumption doesn't prevent an arrest; and 2) they are going to call the Harris County DA's office to see if a UCW charge will be appropriate. Based upon Rosenthal's position on this issue, everyone knows the answer will be "yes."

Also, please note the sentence that says “A Houston police officer will speak with a motorist and conduct a thorough investigation to determine if the motorist was in the course of "traveling, . . ." The officer won’t be limiting his investigation to determination whether ir not the driver met the five elements of the presumption. Three of the five elements of the presumption can be determined by the officer without questioning the driver. Was he/she in a car; was he or she engaged in criminal activity other than traffic and was the handgun in plain view? The only thing left for the officer to determine is whether the driver is a convicted felon, or otherwise prohibited from possessing firearms, or a member of a “criminal street gang� as defined in TPC Chp. 71.

Formal control notwithstanding, HPD is following Rosenthal's lead on this issue.

Chas.

Houston Police To Enforce Unlawful Carrying of Weapons

September 1, 2005 -- Generally, Texas law prohibits a person from carrying a weapon in a motor vehicle unless that person is "traveling," complying with another defense under the law, or is a concealed handgun license holder.

While the penal code does not specifically define "traveling," Texas case law provides guidance regarding this matter. House Bill 823 creates a presumption in Section 2.05 of the Texas Penal Code that a person is "traveling" in certain circumstances. A person is presumed to be traveling if he or she is:

* In a private vehicle
* Not otherwise engaged in criminal activity other than a traffic offense
* Not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm, being a felon
* Not a member of a criminal street gang
* Not carrying a handgun in plain view

This change does not prevent law enforcement officers from arresting a person who is in a motor vehicle for carrying a handgun under Section 46.02 of the Texas Penal Code if the person is not "traveling."

A Houston police officer will speak with a motorist and conduct a thorough investigation to determine if the motorist was in the course of "traveling," should a weapon be located in a vehicle. Officers will then contact the Harris County District Attorney's office to determine if the charge of unlawfully carrying a weapon is appropriate.

9-01-05

For additional information, please contact the HPD Public Affairs Division at 713-308-3200.

http://www.houstontx.gov/police/nr/nr090105-1.htm
User avatar

Charles L. Cotton
Site Admin
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 17787
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Friendswood, TX
Contact:

#19

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

Here's another one. This one is more explicit concerning HPD following Rosenthal's lead.

Chas.

Aug. 30, 2005, 1:35AM
DA opposed to new handgun law

Pistol-toting drivers without a permit will still be prosecuted, Rosenthal warns

By CLAY ROBISON
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle Austin Bureau

AUSTIN - Motorists arrested for carrying pistols in their cars without a concealed handgun license will continue to be prosecuted in Houston, despite a new law that purports to give them a legal defense, Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal said Monday.
Although the sponsor said the law should reduce the number of arrests for unlawful handgun possession, Rosenthal said it won't change enforcement practices in Houston after it goes into effect on Thursday.

"It is still going to be against the law for (unlicensed) persons to carry handguns in autos," the district attorney said, adding that the new legal defense can still be challenged by prosecutors.

The new law, enacted during the regular legislative session last spring, seeks to clarify a longtime law that allowed Texans to carry handguns while traveling, a qualification that was subject to a number of inconsistent court interpretations over the years.

The new statute says a person is "presumed to be traveling" if he or she is in a private vehicle, is not engaged in criminal activity (except for a minor traffic offense), is not prohibited by any other law from possessing a firearm and is not a member of a criminal street gang.

It also requires the handgun to be concealed in the car, although weapons can be discovered by officers during routine traffic stops if a driver gives permission for a car to be searched or opens a glove compartment where a gun is secured to retrieve an insurance card or other documentation.

"The intent of the law is to keep innocent people from going to jail," said the sponsor, Rep. Terry Keel, R-Austin, a former prosecutor and former Travis County sheriff who now is a candidate for the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals.

The law, House Bill 823, was supported by the National Rifle Association and the American Civil Liberties Union and opposed by various law-enforcement groups.

More than 237,000 Texans have concealed handgun licenses. But many other law-abiding adults don't have licenses because they are disqualified by exceptions that have nothing to do with public safety, said Alice Tripp, a lobbyist for the Texas State Rifle Association, an NRA affiliate.

Tripp said people who have defaulted on student loans, who owe the state sales tax or franchise tax payments or are behind in child support payments are ineligible to receive a license.

Keel said he hoped the law will prompt police officers to think twice about arresting motorists who meet the new legal presumption and spare them the expense and "indignity" of arrest and prosecution.

Otherwise, he said, "They basically are going to arrest innocent people and make them prove their innocence."

Rosenthal and Rob Kepple, executive director of the Texas District and County Attorneys Association, disagreed.

Rosenthal said the new presumption about "traveling" doesn't define what constitutes traveling and can be challenged in court by prosecutors, leaving it to juries to decide verdicts "based upon the facts of the case."

A prosecutor could summon witnesses to successfully argue that a defendant wasn't traveling because he was simply "driving around the corner for a carton of milk," Kepple said.

"I really don't think (the law) should affect how police officers respond in arresting somebody," he [Rosenthal] added.

Houston Police Department spokeswoman Johanna Abad indicated Houston police were going to take their advice from Rosenthal's office.

Unlawful possession of a weapon is a class A misdemeanor punishable by as much as one year in county jail and a $4,000 fine. Rosenthal said most cases are resolved through plea bargains.

The prosecutor said he asked Gov. Rick Perry to veto the bill because "taking weapons off the street is a pretty good deal." He said his office handled about 5,000 weapons cases of varying degrees of severity last year.

Tripp called Rosenthal's opposition a case of "sour grapes ... and a threat to the general public."

clay.robison@chron.com

Subscribe for less than 30 cents a day!

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archi ... 05_3899161
Last edited by Charles L. Cotton on Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KinnyLee
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1295
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:59 pm
Contact:

#20

Post by KinnyLee »

"The prosecutor said he asked Gov. Rick Perry to veto the bill because "taking weapons off the street is a pretty good deal." He said his office handled about 5,000 weapons cases of varying degrees of severity last year."

It's like confiscating firearms from the Katrina victim's home. It makes the street a safer place. :roll:
User avatar

stevie_d_64
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 7590
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:17 pm
Location: 77504

#21

Post by stevie_d_64 »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Paladin, I know you baited me into this - and it worked! :smash: I bet Steve put you up to it.
I cannot confirm or deny...I am such a rebel... :lol:

I remember having this conversation with Chucky a while back...And felt like afterwards I needed to wash up or something...I was not impressed after I figured out what he was trying to tell me at that time...

And even though I really wanteed to understand why he took this position, the outrage from our community has apparently fallen on deaf ears...If he had come out and explained why he was going to be pill about this issue, maybe things might be different...

Or not...

So if he gets the boot in the '08 elections, I'm ok with it...But who would want to run against him???
Last edited by stevie_d_64 on Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
User avatar

rgoldy
Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:49 pm
Location: Sugar Land TX

#22

Post by rgoldy »

We may get an opportunity to observe the process pretty quick. A Texans player has been charged with unlawful carrying for having a pistol on the floor of his vehicle where an HPD officer saw it during a traffic stop.
Of course it will also allow us to observe how the system handles an NFL player while we try to compare how the same system might handle someone else under the same circumstances.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
JOIN NRA[/i] JOIN TSRA
User avatar

Lumberjack98
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:15 pm
Location: Katy

#23

Post by Lumberjack98 »

rgoldy wrote:We may get an opportunity to observe the process pretty quick. A Texans player has been charged with unlawful carrying for having a pistol on the floor of his vehicle where an HPD officer saw it during a traffic stop.
Of course it will also allow us to observe how the system handles an NFL player while we try to compare how the same system might handle someone else under the same circumstances.
This might be the key here. Whether it was out in the open or not. I'll be very curious as to how this comes out.
NRA Lifetime Member
TSRA Lifetime Member
User avatar

stevie_d_64
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 7590
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:17 pm
Location: 77504

#24

Post by stevie_d_64 »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:Tripp called Rosenthal's opposition a case of "sour grapes ... and a threat to the general public."
I would definitely take Alice's comment to the bank...

Charles...Do you think your compadre Mr. "D.H.", might consider taking a paycut and run against Chuck next time??? I would support that campaign without a doubt...

Just a crazy armchair lawyer idea... ;-) ;-)
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 6356
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

Re: What to expect in Harris County for Car-Carry without CH

#25

Post by Paladin »

txinvestigator wrote:
Paladin wrote:
txinvestigator wrote:
Paladin wrote:
If they find a handgun(on or about your person without a CHL), they will arrest you.
Who are they? Houston City Police, Harris County Sherrif, Harris Constables?

Where did you get this information that "they" WILL arrest you?
Rosenthal said as much publically. I would suppose all police in Harris county that take direction from the Harris County DA. More than just HPD. I have personal knowledge that its true.
NO LE agency talkes direction from any DA. It does not work that way. LEO's get their directives from the agency where they work.

I hate to do it, but I am calling bull on your assertation that any LE agency in Harris County is under direction of Rosenthal. I all call bull that "If they find a handgun(on or about your person without a CHL), they will arrest you.".

If he gets a UCW case, I believe he will prosecute.

What is this "personal knowledge"?
txinvestigator,

I have personal knowledge that this has indeed happened. You can cover your eyes and ears and pretend this stuff isn't happening all you want, but I can assure you it's true.

I've never been an LEO, but I know for a fact that DA's do indeed inform LEOs on the law. Your average cop is not a lawyer and gets legal information from their local DA's office.

And as far as calling bull... I'm going to have to call bull on your signature line. That quote "Speed is Fine, but accuracy is final" is a 19th century quote from Wyatt Earp (personal knowledge).
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

Charles L. Cotton
Site Admin
Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 17787
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Friendswood, TX
Contact:

#26

Post by Charles L. Cotton »

stevie_d_64 wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Tripp called Rosenthal's opposition a case of "sour grapes ... and a threat to the general public."
I would definitely take Alice's comment to the bank...

Charles...Do you think your compadre Mr. "D.H.", might consider taking a paycut and run against Chuck next time??? I would support that campaign without a doubt...

Just a crazy armchair lawyer idea... ;-) ;-)
I seriously doubt it; he's too young for that office. I am going to have lunch with him sometime and I plan to broach the subject.

Chas.
User avatar

stevie_d_64
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 7590
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:17 pm
Location: 77504

#27

Post by stevie_d_64 »

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
stevie_d_64 wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:Tripp called Rosenthal's opposition a case of "sour grapes ... and a threat to the general public."
I would definitely take Alice's comment to the bank...

Charles...Do you think your compadre Mr. "D.H.", might consider taking a paycut and run against Chuck next time??? I would support that campaign without a doubt...

Just a crazy armchair lawyer idea... ;-) ;-)
I seriously doubt it; he's too young for that office. I am going to have lunch with him sometime and I plan to broach the subject.

Chas.
"Age and treachery will win over youth and skill everytime..."

"Stevie-D's Grandfather"

And yes, my grandfather probably got that from someone else...But I do give the statement some weight in certain situations...

And I'm sure from what I have heard from him so far (Mr. D.H.) that he's not just a "one issue" attorney...

I would though like to know a little more about his "politics" though...I think he'd make a fine HCDA...

But thats just me...
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 6356
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

#28

Post by Paladin »

I looked at HPD's crime statistics:

http://www.houstontx.gov/police/cs/pdfs ... ummary.pdf

The numbers HPD has for 'Unlawful weapon carrying, possession' are around 1100-1400 per year since the CHL law kicked in.

Since Rosenthal said: "Last year, this office handled about 5,000 weapons cases"... I would imagine that 3,000-4,000 weapons cases come from the other law enforcement agencies in the county.

Since Rosenthal said: "I do not expect a decrease in that number because of this change in the law." He must assume all the law enforcement agencies in the county are on the same page.

----------------------------------------------------------------

As a side note, it is interesting that before the CHL law kicked, HPD had around 1,800 to 3,200 'Unlawful weapon carrying, possession' cases per year. That's almost twice as many.
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
User avatar

stevie_d_64
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 7590
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:17 pm
Location: 77504

#29

Post by stevie_d_64 »

Paladin wrote:As a side note, it is interesting that before the CHL law kicked, HPD had around 1,800 to 3,200 'Unlawful weapon carrying, possession' cases per year. That's almost twice as many.
I love numbers...

In this case you could presume that the number of UCW infractions were committed by people who should not be in posession of a firearm in the first place...

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the language of the law passed that allows you to carry a firearm in your car "if traveling" blah blah blah...That those persons who would not otherwise be restricted from doing so (i.e.: convicted felons, etc. etc.) could do so...

So a law-abiding citizen could have a firearm in the car with them...While traveling...

So the question is...What is Chucks big rub with this law??? Is it that "traveling" for some reason has not been defined well enough??? Because the rest of the law seems pretty clear to me, regardless of how I feel about it in general...

If a law that was designed to define and reduce the ambiguity in our basic right to keep and bear arms is clear to most of us "non-enforcers" of the law, but confuses, and creates problems with the "law enforcement" side of the issue (that being the desk jockeys, not the street folks)...What gives???

All I know is that I am glad I will continue to keep up my license in this state...To which this law will not effect me that much...
"Perseverance and Preparedness triumph over Procrastination and Paranoia every time.” -- Steve
NRA - Life Member
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Μολών λαβέ!
User avatar

Topic author
Paladin
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 7
Posts: 6356
Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:02 pm
Location: DFW

#30

Post by Paladin »

stevie_d_64 wrote:What is Chucks big rub with this law???
I think he must be upset with the idea of people with no official license and training carring a handgun in their car(legally or not)... while it's always been legal to carry a rifle or shotgun. Makes perfect sense :???:
JOIN NRA TODAY!, NRA Benefactor Life, TSRA Defender Life, Gun Owners of America Life, SAF, FPC, VCDL Member
LTC/SSC Instructor, NRA Certified Instructor, CRSO
The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us. -Thomas Jefferson
Post Reply

Return to “General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion”