Shoot or not to shoot...

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

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hoss4570
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#16

Post by hoss4570 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:53 pm

The tools are mine, the tool shed is mine, the property he is standing on is mine. If I let him go, he may think I'm an easy target and come back. Mabe I ain't there, but my wife or teenage daughter is. I don't want either of them hurt. Besides, the tools are MINE. I shoot. I don't feel sorry for him, I don't go screwing around other folks property, or steal their tools. I expect the same. I HATE theifs. I shoot. Just leave me and mine alone, thats the best advise I can give robbers. I have spent a lot of time in south Texas, back years ago, working on a ranch in Mavrick County right on the river. It is a WHOLE other world down there. :fire :fire
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Right2Carry
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#17

Post by Right2Carry » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:24 pm

XDandy wrote:Well, in a situation like this there's what I'd like to do and what I probably would have done.

#1 What I would like to do. I would have liked to hold him at gun point and have him empty his pockets. I would then proceed to go through his wallet taking any cash, credit cards, or identification he had on him. Then I would let him go, knowing what it feels like to have your personal property taken from you. I know, I couldn't do it because of repercussions, but man, it just seems like the 'eye for an eye' thing to do.

#2 What I would have done. I probably would have done exactly what you did. Go to turn off the light, see the perp, draw my gun and hold it on him. Then I would get out of the door way, keeping my distance from the kid with my gun still pointed at him. With no way to call the cops and not wanting to stand there and have a staring contest with this kid until my wife noticed I was missing, I probably would have given a stern warning about what will happen if I ever see him on my property again, and let him go. I just couldn't bring myself to shoot a kid until I felt like he had intentions of advancing on me or until I saw him produce anykind of weapon. At that point I would have fired to prevent the situation going any further. But if all he wants to do is s-l-o-w-l-y walk out the door and get off my property, I would have let him do it.
I wonder if you could keep his ID to hand over to the police later so they know who to go looking for? I don't know if that is legal but I am sure someone will chime in.
“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, an American Soldier doesn't have that problem". — President Ronald Reagan, 1985


familyman
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#18

Post by familyman » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:08 pm

Really hard to say what I would do.

He made a decision to pick up the screwdriver and I don't think it was to loosen a door hinge for a second means of egress.

You have no idea how he got there or who is with him.

You don't know if he has already been in your house and harmed your family members, been through your things, or has an additional weapon besides the screw driver.

His partner might be in the house as you play Mexican standoff, waiting for someone to come looking for you.

I would have to say that if he hesitated to follow my verbal commands, or gave me reason to beleive that he was not alone and there was additional threat to my family members on the property, he would cease to exist as I moved on to clear my family.


hoss4570
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#19

Post by hoss4570 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:26 pm

familyman wrote: and there was additional threat to my family members on the property, he would cease to exist as I moved on to clear my family.
Yep. But your right, I really don't know what I'd do, and heres the reason why. A few years ago, before I became lic. to carry, I was setting in my living room sewing on a holster. My daughter, 14 years old at the time, came in and said "Dad, theres a drunk guy out there yelling and cussing at Denise's (my sister) house. I am crippled and walk with two canes. I went outside to ask him what he needed. To make a long story short, he refused to leave, even after my wife brought me a pistol, he refused to leave. He kept getting in my face and saying "Hit me, I dare you, hit me'" I kept telling him to get back, and he kept comming. I DID NOT SHOOT. My wife called the cops and than he left. Next night, same thing. next night, same thing. On the fourth night, he told me "One day I'll catch you without your pistol and I'll kill you." About two weeks later, he did catch me without my pistol, I was out in my shop working on my '50 Chevy pickup. He pickuped a 2x4 and beat the living daylights out of me (he was in his early 20s, me in my late 40s and crippled). Broke my hand and caved in my skull. They caught him and he did five years in the slam. Knowing what I know now, I would have shot him. I had three oppertunities ti kill him, and I did'nt. I think now I would. :fire :fire
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Sangiovese
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#20

Post by Sangiovese » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:27 pm

I was in agreement with all of your actions for as long as you told us what you did.

As for the cliffhanger ending... This is how I see it going down if I was in your position.

When he picked up the screwdriver, his actions told me that he was willing to attack me with a deadly weapon - the only problem (in his eyes) was that he was not close enough to me to stab me with it yet.

He dropped the weapon when he saw my gun... but he did not heed my warnings to stop - he advanced toward me. This tells me that he thinks he can disarm me. I consider a man advancing on me when he knows I am armed, against my instructions, to be attempting a gun grab.

I shoot until he stops or I have to change magazines. If I have to change magazines and he is still advancing, I continue to shoot until he stops.

What I would prefer to do would be to let him escape - but I can't take the chance. If he had another means of escape that didn't involve advancing toward me, then I would cover him until he was gone... but by advancing toward me, he has forced me to defend myself.

Very unfortunate... because if he had not immediately started advancing, I would have probably backed away enough to give him an avenue of escape that did not threaten me.

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seamusTX
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#21

Post by seamusTX » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:35 pm

Please comment on the potential role of dogs in this scenario.

TXRancher, I don't mean to hijack your thread. It seems that most working farms have dogs, and they're excellent burglar alarms.

- Jim


308nato
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#22

Post by 308nato » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:01 pm

TXRancher
you have to tell us how it ends I cant stand the suspence and I wont
sleep with all these senarios running threw my head. :headscratch


govnor
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#23

Post by govnor » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:30 am

Tough call, but I probably would have shot him before he had a chance to drop the screwdriver. Just the fact that he rounded on you with it meant he would have used it on you if you were unarmed. What if it had been an unarmed family member that just walked up on this guy. Who knows what he would have done.

It's hard to say in split second decisions like that, but one less piece of trash walking the street is a good enough reason for me. Now, had it been a 14 year old kid then I wouldn't shoot unless there was an obvious threat such as a gun pointed at me. Guy in his mid twenties should know better. I say take him down. If you're worried about lawsuits then you could always just clean up the mess and bury him in the back pasture :grin:
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because hard men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."- George Orwell

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Venus Pax
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#24

Post by Venus Pax » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:02 am

govnor wrote:Now, had it been a 14 year old kid then I wouldn't shoot unless there was an obvious threat such as a gun pointed at me. Guy in his mid twenties should know better. I say take him down. If you're worried about lawsuits then you could always just clean up the mess and bury him in the back pasture :grin:
A 14-year-old kid will kill you just as quickly as a 20-something, if not quicker. Although most kids I've taught are great, every so often I get a sociopath.

I wouldn't bury someone in the back yard. There's no need to do that, and you're in big doo-doo if your new lawn fertilizer is ever discovered. You're okay calling the cops on this. He was on your property stealing, then threatened you with a screwdriver.
"If a man breaks in your house, he ain't there for iced tea." Mom & Dad.

The NRA & TSRA are a bargain; they're much cheaper than the cold, dead hands experience.


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TX Rancher
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#25

Post by TX Rancher » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:32 pm

Jim:

You brought up a valid point about dogs, and how they would play into this scenario. At present, I have 2 (German Shepard & Border Collie). The BC is excellent on the cattle, but I suspect next to useless for home defense. The GS is a different story…he’s very protective, and while he’s under good voice command, I suspect he would have jumped the BG before I even knew he was there since once he figured I was headed to the shed, he would have gone through the door first (he’s got to be first everywhere we go!). But in this particular case, he and the BC were both in the house (good thing…the BC would have probably been helping him load my tools up :shock: ).

Another person mentioned a long gun…yep, I often carry one on the ranch and this day was no exception, except I had put it in the house, with the dogs, before I went down to the barn...yea, I know, stupid :roll:

The end of the story is very anticlimactic, no OK Corral or fight to the death for the gun…no career criminal hauled away in the back of a squad car…and no victorious battle with a group of gang-bangers…and no fat contract from a studio for the rights to the story :grin:

As this guy walked towards me, very slowly, I stepped back out the door and moved far enough to clear the doorway and give me a view to the corners of the building. I never lost sight of the BG

The BG came one step through the doorway, and I said “close enough� and he stopped...immediately…the weapon stayed pointed COM the entire time. He said something to the effect of “I don’t want any trouble, I just want to leave� at which time I responded with “Then do it�. He moved away for a few steps watching me, then turned and ran into the trees heading towards the road. I could follow his progress by sound. Then I heard a car start, and head down the road, accelerating rapidly. Once I heard the car move, I lowered the pistol and the whole thing was over.

After going back to the house to get the rifle and the German Shepard, I checked the premise, inventoried my tools (nothing missing), turned off the light, locked the door, and went inside to make supper.

Now I have to state here that I wasn’t thinking about any legal ramifications such as law suits, so that had nothing to due with staying my hand. The truth of the matter is I just never felt the guy needed to be shot, and that’s the only reason I didn’t pull the trigger.

And when I say needed to be shot, I mean “needed�…it’s got nothing to do with the legal definition of right to use deadly force, or did I have a right to send a moral message about my belongings, or a belief that life is sacred…he just never represented a threat that I felt needed me to pull the trigger.

This kid was just scared having to stare at my pistol. Nothing in his actions led me to believe he wanted to do anything except survive the next few seconds and then leave.

His advance towards me after he dropped the “weapon� appeared to be more his moving towards the door, which I felt to him meant escape, then it was an attempt to get a better tactical position from which to attack me.

As for keeping him there, I had discounted that immediately. I’ve had problems taking folks in custody and that was with other guys around to support…by myself just didn’t make good sense to me. Ask him to leave his wallet…possibly…and in my mind I had thought about that many times before the incident. But in the middle of it, the truth is it just didn’t cross my mind.

The whole thing was one judgement call after another, and the only thing I can say in my defense is we both ended up living through it.


txinvestigator
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#26

Post by txinvestigator » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:46 pm

I think you did correctly Rancher. :thumbsup:
*CHL Instructor*


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Right2Carry
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#27

Post by Right2Carry » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:21 pm

txinvestigator wrote:I think you did correctly Rancher. :thumbsup:
I agree. And though some may have heartburn over what I am going to say, I still believe JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN LEGALLY, DOESN'T MEAN YOU SHOULD!
“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, an American Soldier doesn't have that problem". — President Ronald Reagan, 1985


phddan
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#28

Post by phddan » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:01 pm

Alls well that ends well. :smile:

Did you call the cops and report it?

Dan


BobCat
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#29

Post by BobCat » Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:42 pm

You handled the situation superbly. You and your family are safe, no tools stolen, the kid was scared enough he will not be back (and maybe scared straight). No blood, no police, no lawyers, no second-guessing whether you "really had to shoot" after the fact.

Your presence of mind in evaluating - correctly - that he was not a real, immediate threat to your well-being, is admirable. I only hope I will be as able to keep my head and think rationally should a similar situation arise at our place.

Thank you for the scenario, and for explaining why you acted as you did.

Regards,
Andrew
Retractable claws; the *original* concealed carry


Big Iron
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#30

Post by Big Iron » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:34 pm

Your way was the best way, TX Rancher. I'd like to think I'd have performed as well under those circumstances.
By the way, I am unpersuaded by the arguments suggesting it would be better to have shot the bad guy so you wouldn't have to worry about him coming back, bothering family members, etc. Bad guys you kill probably have even worse friends and relatives who won't see your side of the story, no matter how clear-cut it seems to you. The likelihood of retaliation problems would be greater, not less, if you had shot him (IMHO).

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