.45 HP necessary YorN

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: .45 HP necessary YorN

#31

Post by The Annoyed Man » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:22 pm

G26ster wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
G26ster wrote:Anyone use Powerball?
Curious, but never tried it because it seemed too pricey to me.
Cabela's 9mm Powerball $16.99 box of 20 - .45 ACP $20.99 box of 20. Seems in line with all other defensive ammo. I usually order from Able Ammo, but they are out of stock in 9mm as are most others. Wonder why? Sell too much, sell to little, factory behind, who knows?
I haven't actually looked at Powerball prices in a long time. I just remember when it was a brand new item, and they were REALLY proud of it. Decades later, and now that the novelty has worn off, it probably is a lot cheaper. Of course back then, light-for-caliber bullets at high pressures and velocities made Corbon seem like a novelty too. :lol:
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


Eric Lamberson
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Re: .45 HP necessary YorN

#32

Post by Eric Lamberson » Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:34 pm

160gr or 185gr CorBon DPX-works just fine.
Massad Ayoob Group Staff Instructor, NRA Life Member, Pistol instructor, and RSO;
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patterson
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Re: .45 HP necessary YorN

#33

Post by patterson » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:22 pm

I go with flying ashtrays in my carry 1911


growlerVII
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Re: .45 HP necessary YorN

#34

Post by growlerVII » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:42 pm

Not trying to start a "legal" discussion. I hand load for all my guns. In .45acp I've seen good results from the 200g Hornady jhp's. I.e: shot through homemade gel with cow bones mixed in. Simulated tissue damage is amazing! The 230g fmj's are just as bad. When they hit something harder than meat they'll yaw, ricochet, etc. I'd say either one will do. The great thing about .45 is that practice ammo=s/d ammo. Jmho.
As an aside: 230g lrn work pretty good too. They tend to wrap around harder stuff and drag it through tissue, or break apart. And they CHEAP.

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Re: .45 HP necessary YorN

#35

Post by The Annoyed Man » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:13 pm

growlerVII wrote:Not trying to start a "legal" discussion. I hand load for all my guns. In .45acp I've seen good results from the 200g Hornady jhp's. I.e: shot through homemade gel with cow bones mixed in. Simulated tissue damage is amazing! The 230g fmj's are just as bad. When they hit something harder than meat they'll yaw, ricochet, etc. I'd say either one will do. The great thing about .45 is that practice ammo=s/d ammo. Jmho.
As an aside: 230g lrn work pretty good too. They tend to wrap around harder stuff and drag it through tissue, or break apart. And they CHEAP.
I don't have a problem with handloading for self defense, although as a practical matter you'd want to be able to say something in court like, "I hand load to the same specifications as the ammo used by my local police department."

The problem with FMJ isn't that they won't hurt a bad guy. My dad shot a Japanese soldier in the abdomen from a few steps away with his 1911 on Iwo Jima. The enemy soldier died, pretty much on the spot. The gun was stoked with GI-issue ball ammo. So the issue isn't that FMJ won't badly wound or kill the bad guy. The issue is whether or not FMJ makes a good responsible SD round, when other people are around. There IS a strong possibility of overpenetration with FMJ. You can argue all you want that isn't the case, but I've seen the exit wounds from ball ammo in virtually any pistol caliber you care to name, in hundreds of patients over the years (most of whom survived being shot, by the way). If your bullet scrubs off a couple hundred FPS passing through the bad guy's body, your 230 grain FMJ could still collect a bystander's aorta or brain at 650 FPS, which is certainly fast enough to kill the innocent party too. If the thought of that doesn't bother you because you feel like you'll have total control over whomever might step into the path of a bullet of yours, not realizing they've entered a free-fire zone, then by all means use FMJ. Personally, I think you'll be sorry.

On the other hand (and this goes, pretty much regardless of caliber), if you want to make sure that you shoot the bad guy, and ONLY the bad guy, then carry JHPs - which in most instances, with a COM shot, are going to stop inside the bad guy's body instead of passing clean through and killing someone you didn't intend to shoot. Also, JHP strikes to the soft tissues of the extremities are far more likely to incapacitate due to than a clean pass through of an FMJ. And believe me......I've seen this stuff up close and personal many many times.....a 200-230 grain JHP in the 800-950 FPS range is just as likely to break a femur or humerus as any FMJ. But unless it's a magnum caliber greater than .4", that JHP isn't likely to make an exit wound.

CAVEAT: if you're shooting .41 magnum or .44 magnum, or even .357 magnum using a bonifide 158 grain hunting load, then not only count on a JHP over penetrating, but also count on a fairly significant exit wound. Also count on the attendant liabilities surround the shooting of innocent bystanders.

But most of us aren't carrying magnum revolvers in calibers ≥ .4". That means, pack JHPs and don't open yourself up to unwanted liabilities. You can't recall a bullet once it has left your muzzle. Ergo, yes, FMJs can be effective against an attacker, but they are a poor choice for SD, unless there simply isn't any alternative. And the truth is, in the United States - even in the anti gun states - you can pretty much count on being able to find JHP ammo in the caliber(s) you need......or JHP bullets if you're going to roll your own.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


growlerVII
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Re: .45 HP necessary YorN

#36

Post by growlerVII » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:22 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
growlerVII wrote:Not trying to start a "legal" discussion. I hand load for all my guns. In .45acp I've seen good results from the 200g Hornady jhp's. I.e: shot through homemade gel with cow bones mixed in. Simulated tissue damage is amazing! The 230g fmj's are just as bad. When they hit something harder than meat they'll yaw, ricochet, etc. I'd say either one will do. The great thing about .45 is that practice ammo=s/d ammo. Jmho.
As an aside: 230g lrn work pretty good too. They tend to wrap around harder stuff and drag it through tissue, or break apart. And they CHEAP.
I don't have a problem with handloading for self defense, although as a practical matter you'd want to be able to say something in court like, "I hand load to the same specifications as the ammo used by my local police department."

The problem with FMJ isn't that they won't hurt a bad guy. My dad shot a Japanese soldier in the abdomen from a few steps away with his 1911 on Iwo Jima. The enemy soldier died, pretty much on the spot. The gun was stoked with GI-issue ball ammo. So the issue isn't that FMJ won't badly wound or kill the bad guy. The issue is whether or not FMJ makes a good responsible SD round, when other people are around. There IS a strong possibility of overpenetration with FMJ. You can argue all you want that isn't the case, but I've seen the exit wounds from ball ammo in virtually any pistol caliber you care to name, in hundreds of patients over the years (most of whom survived being shot, by the way). If your bullet scrubs off a couple hundred FPS passing through the bad guy's body, your 230 grain FMJ could still collect a bystander's aorta or brain at 650 FPS, which is certainly fast enough to kill the innocent party too. If the thought of that doesn't bother you because you feel like you'll have total control over whomever might step into the path of a bullet of yours, not realizing they've entered a free-fire zone, then by all means use FMJ. Personally, I think you'll be sorry.

On the other hand (and this goes, pretty much regardless of caliber), if you want to make sure that you shoot the bad guy, and ONLY the bad guy, then carry JHPs - which in most instances, with a COM shot, are going to stop inside the bad guy's body instead of passing clean through and killing someone you didn't intend to shoot. Also, JHP strikes to the soft tissues of the extremities are far more likely to incapacitate due to than a clean pass through of an FMJ. And believe me......I've seen this stuff up close and personal many many times.....a 200-230 grain JHP in the 800-950 FPS range is just as likely to break a femur or humerus as any FMJ. But unless it's a magnum caliber greater than .4", that JHP isn't likely to make an exit wound.

CAVEAT: if you're shooting .41 magnum or .44 magnum, or even .357 magnum using a bonifide 158 grain hunting load, then not only count on a JHP over penetrating, but also count on a fairly significant exit wound. Also count on the attendant liabilities surround the shooting of innocent bystanders.

But most of us aren't carrying magnum revolvers in calibers ≥ .4". That means, pack JHPs and don't open yourself up to unwanted liabilities. You can't recall a bullet once it has left your muzzle. Ergo, yes, FMJs can be effective against an attacker, but they are a poor choice for SD, unless there simply isn't any alternative. And the truth is, in the United States - even in the anti gun states - you can pretty much count on being able to find JHP ammo in the caliber(s) you need......or JHP bullets if you're going to roll your own.
All true. However, once that pill leaves the muzzle you can just never tell where it'll end up. And as far as logic will go, the what if game is easy to play. Penetration in gel to test some variables, is cool. But I've rarely seen a human being (who was fit to fight) more than 13" thick. Taking into account clothing, muscle mass, fatty tissue, etc isn't really an option during a gunfight. I'd say the best option is to fire on the move and keep a somewhat safe backdrop. Being cognizant of surroundings is an absolute must! I see a new training game in my future. Thanks for the inspiration!

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