Home defense: birdshot

Gun, shooting and equipment discussions unrelated to CHL issues

Moderator: carlson1

User avatar

Topic author
jmorris
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:41 pm
Location: Cibolo
Contact:

Home defense: birdshot

#1

Post by jmorris » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:30 pm

I think it's been awhile since we've had this debate.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... e-defense/
Jay E Morris, Guardian Firearm Training, NRA Pistol, LTC, Cibolo, Tx
NRA Lifetime
TSRA Lifetime (as of my 2019 official old fart birthday)
NRA Recruiter (link)


cyphertext
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:31 am

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#2

Post by cyphertext » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:35 pm

I notice the writer is a Sheriff... if he carried a shotgun on patrol, what did he have it loaded with?


dlh
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:16 pm

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#3

Post by dlh » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:04 pm

I live out in the country so "over-penetration" is not a problem for me. I keep my Mossberg and Winchester 12 gauge shotguns well-fed with low-recoil double-ought buck.
Please know and follow the rules of firearms safety.


crazy2medic
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1672
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:59 am

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#4

Post by crazy2medic » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:19 pm

After reading the FBI analysis of the Miami shoot out, I load my Ithaca 37 12ga with #4 buckshot!
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention

User avatar

Jusme
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm
Location: Johnson County, Texas

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#5

Post by Jusme » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:11 pm

I use bird shot for its designated use. BIRDS!!
If I ever have birds invade my home I will remove the #1 buck and shoot them, with bird shot. Since I don't live where Alfred Hitchcock filmed his movie, I will expect that any invaders will be larger, have solid bones, and will be more determined to cause me harm. Therefore they will face a round of #1 buck shot, followed by more rounds, of #1,#0,#00, or #000 buck if he is still on the attack. I can also quickly transition to a slug, if these rounds don't convince him that his chosen profession, was a bad choice.

Those who worry more about the potential of over penetration, than stopping the threat, should probably rely on pepper spray, or some other non-lethal deterrent. Bad guys don't enter your home, with a firearm, and concern themselves with whether or not their rounds will hit people behind walls. Shot placement is key in any HD situation.

Nearly all wall penetration tests, are performed with shots fired at a perpendicular angle, tests performed at any oblique angle show that wall studs, door frames, etc., are very effective at preventing over penetration. Also, in all of the HD shootings, I have heard about, there have been no innocent victims shot by the homeowner.

Everyone can make their own choices, but I am not going to risk my survival, or that of my family on what I consider to be an under performing load. JMHO
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:


twomillenium
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1691
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:42 pm
Location: houston area

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#6

Post by twomillenium » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:12 pm

cyphertext wrote:I notice the writer is a Sheriff... if he carried a shotgun on patrol, what did he have it loaded with?
The article stated that he carried 00 buck in his patrol car and birdshot in his home defense shotgun. It also stated that the shooter is entirely responsible for everything and anything they shoot, no matter their good intentions. I personally witnessed a similar test/demonstration and that convinced me that birdshot inside the home is macho enough for defense and it is the intelligent choice for home defense. As far as hearing or knowing of an innocent being seriously shot or killed by friendly fire from a home defense shotgun, I don't know of any but I don't want to be the first when birdshot has proven to be more than efficient to stop a threat inside the home.
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA pistol instructor, RSO, NRA Endowment Life , TSRA, Glock enthusiast (tho I have others)
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is knowing not to add it to a fruit salad.

You will never know another me, this could be good or not so good, but it is still true.

User avatar

AJSully421
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: SW Fort Worth

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#7

Post by AJSully421 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:02 pm

twomillenium wrote:
cyphertext wrote:I notice the writer is a Sheriff... if he carried a shotgun on patrol, what did he have it loaded with?
The article stated that he carried 00 buck in his patrol car and birdshot in his home defense shotgun. It also stated that the shooter is entirely responsible for everything and anything they shoot, no matter their good intentions. I personally witnessed a similar test/demonstration and that convinced me that birdshot inside the home is macho enough for defense and it is the intelligent choice for home defense. As far as hearing or knowing of an innocent being seriously shot or killed by friendly fire from a home defense shotgun, I don't know of any but I don't want to be the first when birdshot has proven to be more than efficient to stop a threat inside the home.

Pull the other one.
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan, 1964

30.06 signs only make criminals and terrorists safer.

NRA, LTC, School Safety, Armed Security, & Body Guard Instructor


Alf
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:06 pm

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#8

Post by Alf » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:46 pm

How many hogs has he taken with birdshot?

User avatar

AndyC
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 10587
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:34 pm
Location: Garland, TX

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#9

Post by AndyC » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:12 pm

twomillenium wrote:birdshot inside the home is macho enough for defense and it is the intelligent choice for home defense....birdshot has proven to be more than efficient to stop a threat inside the home.
It isn't and hasn't, but carry on.

I believe that people who use birdshot aren't concerned with over-penetration as much as they might protest otherwise (or they'd simply refuse to use any of their handguns inside, too) but can't stand the fact that someone might die from being shot so they use birdshot because "I just wanna pepper him a little bit and scare him away".

That article had zero to do with terminal ballistics and focused merely on the penetration of sheet-rock - I'm hardly convinced. While people have died from being shot with birdshot, to my mind dying is irrelevant: my questions are "How many cases are there and what percentage of them stopped. Of those stopped, how fast did they stop after being shot and how far away were they?". Other than close-up assassinations, I'm sure there are very few.
Remember Kitty Genovese

Image

Amateurs skip safety-checks - pros don't.
Preferred Travel Agent - 72 Virgins Dating Club, Iraq
There's nothing quite like the offer of 230 grains to a man's chest to remind him of his manners


cyphertext
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 4
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:31 am

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#10

Post by cyphertext » Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:12 pm

twomillenium wrote:
cyphertext wrote:I notice the writer is a Sheriff... if he carried a shotgun on patrol, what did he have it loaded with?
The article stated that he carried 00 buck in his patrol car and birdshot in his home defense shotgun. It also stated that the shooter is entirely responsible for everything and anything they shoot, no matter their good intentions. I personally witnessed a similar test/demonstration and that convinced me that birdshot inside the home is macho enough for defense and it is the intelligent choice for home defense. As far as hearing or knowing of an innocent being seriously shot or killed by friendly fire from a home defense shotgun, I don't know of any but I don't want to be the first when birdshot has proven to be more than efficient to stop a threat inside the home.
Anything that will penetrate enough to hit vitals will go through sheet rock. Birdshot fails to penetrate to the FBI's recommended depth in ballistic gel to hit vitals... therefor birdshot is a poor choice for defense.


MechAg94
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 3
Posts: 1584
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:28 pm

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#11

Post by MechAg94 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:03 am

IMO, birdshot meets the minimum criteria for self defense. You have a gun that will fire and you ought to actually hit your attacker. Beyond that, I think there are better choices for ammo selection. Just shooting and hitting your attacker will end the fight in most self defense encounters. However, there are many where drugged up or determined criminals will continue to attack after getting shot. I don't want relatively underpowered ammo.

User avatar

Middle Age Russ
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1341
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am
Location: Spring-Woodlands

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#12

Post by Middle Age Russ » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:36 am

As others have said, I want my defensive ammunition to be capable of enough penetration to cause significant injury to life (and threat) sustaining structures and organs in an attacker's body. Birdshot is simply less capable of doing this than what I prefer to load the defense shotguns with.
Russ
Stay aware and engaged. Awareness buys time; time buys options. Survival may require moving quickly past the Observe, Orient and Decide steps to ACT.
NRA Life Member, CRSO, Basic Pistol, PPITH & PPOTH Instructor, Texas 4-H Certified Pistol & Rifle Coach, Texas LTC Instructor

User avatar

goose
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:20 pm
Location: Katy-ish

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#13

Post by goose » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:48 am

MechAg94 wrote:IMO, birdshot meets the minimum criteria for self defense. You have a gun that will fire and you ought to actually hit your attacker. Beyond that, I think there are better choices for ammo selection. Just shooting and hitting your attacker will end the fight in most self defense encounters. However, there are many where drugged up or determined criminals will continue to attack after getting shot. I don't want relatively underpowered ammo.
This is where I would land. I'd use birdshot all day long if it was what I had at hand, in that it would send a large percentage of attackers fleeing without question. However, I would feel less than comfortable planning ahead of time to use birdshot. Plenty of cases can be made for smaller pistols, etc. because of the smaller form factor. For any given shotgun that is a harder sale. Other than a shotgun that simply will not pattern a smaller buckshot, I would lean towards the 4 or 2 buck.
NRA Endowment - NRA RSO - Μολὼν λάβε

User avatar

The Annoyed Man
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 25295
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:59 pm
Location: North Richland Hills, Texas
Contact:

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#14

Post by The Annoyed Man » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:59 am

I would shoot a home invader with a .22......if that's all I had available. I would shoot a home invader with birdshot.......if that's all I had available.


Fortunately, that isn't all I have available, and I'm not about to hamstring myself unnecessarily. BTW, I don't much care how macho a particular shotgun load is; I care about how terminally effective it is. If I cared about "macho", I'd load nothing but slugs. Instead, I load #1 buckshot. Also, I have helped deliver medical care to people who have been shot with birdshot, and with buckshot. Birdshot is often not nearly effective enough to stop someone........"stopping" them through incapacitation being the key. I don't want a person to stop because they simply gave up. That person may rediscover their will to fight. I want the person to be unable to resume the fight. Whether or not he chooses to lay down and die is up to him, but whether or not he can choose to fight is up to me. I'm taking that off the table, by not limiting myself to birdshot.

In any event, my shotgun isn't even my frontline home defense choice, even though it would make a fine choice. I keep a suppressed .300 Blk SBR loaded with subsonics for that purpose; followed by either a 9mm pistol or a shotgun, depending on circumstances, if I need to go loud.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

User avatar

Jusme
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 5
Posts: 5063
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:23 pm
Location: Johnson County, Texas

Re: Home defense: birdshot

#15

Post by Jusme » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:17 pm

Home defense is a subjective thing, simply because the layout of everyone's home is different, there are different numbers of people in the home at any given time, and everyone's, mind set and physical abilities are different.
I have practiced, walk through scenarios, for every imaginable home invasion/burglary, type scenario in my house, different potential entry points, number of actors, location of HD weapons, family members, pets, etc. I have tried to figure out where everyone in my house would be at almost any given time in a 24 hour period. I have also tried to realistically determine what my best strategy would be for confronting a threat in both daytime and nighttime situations.
My reaction time, as most everyone else's would be slower, waking from a deep sleep. Darkness, plays a big role in how I would be able to identify, and act upon a threat. My choice of self defense weapon may also be different depending on these factors.

I don't know if there is any way, you can possibly plan for every possible scenario, but I have tried to cover as many as I can think of.

Criminals, entering my home, and threatening my family's safety, and security, is a terrifying prospect, for many reasons, but for me, it is the thought that I may have to react with deadly force to protect myself. That is not something I ever want to have happen, but, I feel that going through these things in my head, planning, and physically clearing my home, finding static points to defend myself, identifying available cover, and concealment spots, and mentally preparing myself for that eventuality, gives me much more peace of mind. JMHO
Take away the Second first, and the First is gone in a second :rules: :patriot:

Post Reply

Return to “General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion”