Straw Man Query

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cyphertext
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Re: Straw Man Query

#31

Post by cyphertext » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:44 pm

TVGuy wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
Liberty wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
I was taught the same when I worked on the other side of the gun counter. All of those on here who say they paid but their daughter / son / whoever filled out the paperwork would not have been sold a gun by me, even if I believed them or knew them... one person paying with a different person filling out the paperwork is one of the signs of a straw purchase.
I was purchasing a couple of long guns at Acadamy a few months ago my wife was leaning over my shoulder and ensuring that I was filling out the form accurately and legibly. We were warned by the salesperson that if she continued to help me fill out the form that he would cancel the sale. Sheesh, as my wife, legally it's her money and her gun too.
Yep... that is how the feds see it. You are the buyer, you are the one filling out the form. Have a question, read the back of the form for directions.

As far as the feds see it, it is not your wife's gun legally... let's say your wife was a restricted person because of a felony conviction. Under federal law, you may still own a gun. It is yours, not your wife's. You will have to take steps to insure that she does not have access or possession of it though.
I've actually heard the exact opposite when buying guns with my wife due to community property laws.
Even with community property laws, the firearm is being transferred to one person by the licensed dealer. When selling to a business entity, one person acting on behalf of that business completes the 4473 with their personal info and then provides an addendum stating that the firearm is being purchased for use by the business entity. The 4473 does not transfer the firearm to multiple parties.

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TVGuy
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Re: Straw Man Query

#32

Post by TVGuy » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:24 pm

cyphertext wrote:
TVGuy wrote:
I've actually heard the exact opposite when buying guns with my wife due to community property laws.
Even with community property laws, the firearm is being transferred to one person by the licensed dealer. When selling to a business entity, one person acting on behalf of that business completes the 4473 with their personal info and then provides an addendum stating that the firearm is being purchased for use by the business entity. The 4473 does not transfer the firearm to multiple parties.
Every other Friday my company transfers a sum of money to me and only me. The moment it hits my account, it is equally my wife's by law. :mad5

More to my point - If I go to a gun dealer and fill out the 4473 for a gun I'm going to take possession of, why can't my wife (I'm only speaking about such a relationship, not a friend or other relative) pay with her debit card. Technically that money in he account is equally mine.


cyphertext
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Re: Straw Man Query

#33

Post by cyphertext » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:25 pm

TVGuy wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
TVGuy wrote:
I've actually heard the exact opposite when buying guns with my wife due to community property laws.
Even with community property laws, the firearm is being transferred to one person by the licensed dealer. When selling to a business entity, one person acting on behalf of that business completes the 4473 with their personal info and then provides an addendum stating that the firearm is being purchased for use by the business entity. The 4473 does not transfer the firearm to multiple parties.
Every other Friday my company transfers a sum of money to me and only me. The moment it hits my account, it is equally my wife's by law. :mad5

More to my point - If I go to a gun dealer and fill out the 4473 for a gun I'm going to take possession of, why can't my wife (I'm only speaking about such a relationship, not a friend or other relative) pay with her debit card. Technically that money in he account is equally mine.
I'm the FFL... you come into my store to buy a firearm. I don't know you from Adam. I have no way of knowing it is your wife. Could be your sister. Could be a friend from down the street... the feds don't have a process for an FFL to follow to determine the validity of your claim that it is your spouse and it is a joint account. So the way the training goes is if you fill out the paperwork, the debit card needs to come from your wallet, not your wife's purse.

It really puts the FFL in a bad position, as the customers don't understand, and it isn't equally enforced from one store to another. Academy takes a very hard line where they will stop the sale for anything that could appear to be a straw purchase. I never saw it personally, but I heard tales of ATF sting operations where they would come in and set up a scenario to see if the store allowed the transfer.

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Maxwell
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Re: Straw Man Query

#34

Post by Maxwell » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:10 am

cyphertext wrote:
TVGuy wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
TVGuy wrote:
I've actually heard the exact opposite when buying guns with my wife due to community property laws.
Even with community property laws, the firearm is being transferred to one person by the licensed dealer. When selling to a business entity, one person acting on behalf of that business completes the 4473 with their personal info and then provides an addendum stating that the firearm is being purchased for use by the business entity. The 4473 does not transfer the firearm to multiple parties.
Every other Friday my company transfers a sum of money to me and only me. The moment it hits my account, it is equally my wife's by law. :mad5

More to my point - If I go to a gun dealer and fill out the 4473 for a gun I'm going to take possession of, why can't my wife (I'm only speaking about such a relationship, not a friend or other relative) pay with her debit card. Technically that money in he account is equally mine.
I'm the FFL... you come into my store to buy a firearm. I don't know you from Adam. I have no way of knowing it is your wife. Could be your sister. Could be a friend from down the street... the feds don't have a process for an FFL to follow to determine the validity of your claim that it is your spouse and it is a joint account. So the way the training goes is if you fill out the paperwork, the debit card needs to come from your wallet, not your wife's purse.

It really puts the FFL in a bad position, as the customers don't understand, and it isn't equally enforced from one store to another. Academy takes a very hard line where they will stop the sale for anything that could appear to be a straw purchase. I never saw it personally, but I heard tales of ATF sting operations where they would come in and set up a scenario to see if the store allowed the transfer.
We heard about the FBI stings in the sporting goods chain I managed also. If there was any doubt whatsoever the sale was stopped immediately.
I never let schooling interfere with my education. Mark Twain


rm9792
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Re: Straw Man Query

#35

Post by rm9792 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:40 am

cyphertext wrote:
Liberty wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
I was taught the same when I worked on the other side of the gun counter. All of those on here who say they paid but their daughter / son / whoever filled out the paperwork would not have been sold a gun by me, even if I believed them or knew them... one person paying with a different person filling out the paperwork is one of the signs of a straw purchase.
I was purchasing a couple of long guns at Acadamy a few months ago my wife was leaning over my shoulder and ensuring that I was filling out the form accurately and legibly. We were warned by the salesperson that if she continued to help me fill out the form that he would cancel the sale. Sheesh, as my wife, legally it's her money and her gun too.
Yep... that is how the feds see it. You are the buyer, you are the one filling out the form. Have a question, read the back of the form for directions.

As far as the feds see it, it is not your wife's gun legally... let's say your wife was a restricted person because of a felony conviction. Under federal law, you may still own a gun. It is yours, not your wife's. You will have to take steps to insure that she does not have access or possession of it though.
No form to read instructions from. Its on an Ipad or laptop now in a lot of places.


cyphertext
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Posts in topic: 6
Posts: 589
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:31 am

Re: Straw Man Query

#36

Post by cyphertext » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:59 pm

rm9792 wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
Liberty wrote:
cyphertext wrote:
I was taught the same when I worked on the other side of the gun counter. All of those on here who say they paid but their daughter / son / whoever filled out the paperwork would not have been sold a gun by me, even if I believed them or knew them... one person paying with a different person filling out the paperwork is one of the signs of a straw purchase.
I was purchasing a couple of long guns at Acadamy a few months ago my wife was leaning over my shoulder and ensuring that I was filling out the form accurately and legibly. We were warned by the salesperson that if she continued to help me fill out the form that he would cancel the sale. Sheesh, as my wife, legally it's her money and her gun too.
Yep... that is how the feds see it. You are the buyer, you are the one filling out the form. Have a question, read the back of the form for directions.

As far as the feds see it, it is not your wife's gun legally... let's say your wife was a restricted person because of a felony conviction. Under federal law, you may still own a gun. It is yours, not your wife's. You will have to take steps to insure that she does not have access or possession of it though.
No form to read instructions from. Its on an Ipad or laptop now in a lot of places.
The instructions are still available for you to read on that ipad or laptop...

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