Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#46

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:15 pm

MechAg94 wrote:
Interblog wrote:
Johnston admitted to self-awareness of his own provocation. He was quoted in the news article as such.

Each one of us must claim a healthy degree of ownership in the reactions that we elicit from others. There's another active thread on here titled "Is Deviancy the New Norm?" That thread's OP states, "If you look, act, appear to be a clown of some sort, I'm not going to go along and pretend seeing you and your infantile behavior as normal. I will not ignore you. I'll laugh and afford you zero credibility as a fellow human being." That is an example of what I'm talking about. No doubt many "clowns" consider themselves to be "just going about their business". But they do play a role in how they are perceived. Like it or not, that effect of perception is simple human nature.

And a great deal rests in the eye of the beholder. Soccerdad rebutted the general disavowal of responsibility for this effect far more persuasively than I could have, and using much milder examples.
Being aware of people's reaction and intentionally provoking a reaction are two completely different things. You are making the assumption that he is a troublemaker going out of his way to bait anti-gun people. I don't think we can assume that solely from that one quoted sentence.
I think...... and the skimpy skirt analogy is actually right on..... that if one has knowledge that their clothes are going to have a certain effect on some people, they ought not be surprised when they are confronted with that effect. Please understand that I am NOT saying that the reaction is necessarily justified, but human nature is what it is, and some people are jerks. That doesn’t give a jerk the right to act out their jerkiness, but the subject ought not to be naive enough to believe that their provocative choices exist in a vacuum.

Now, I personally have strongly held religious and moral reasons for why I believe that skimpy dresses are a bad idea; but that gives me no right to abuse the person wearing a skimpy dress. “Abuse” includes placing the other person at risk in some way, calling the cops on them for instance, simply because I disapprove of their sartorial choices. In my own case, the other person in the skimpy skirt would have no idea about my disapproval, because I don’t act on impulses like that. It’s called having control over one’s self. Even so, there are LOTS of people who have no such self control; and while it is NOT their right to pester a woman in a skimpy skirt, it would certainly be stupid of her to not understand that her clothing might have that effect on some people. After all, why even wear the stupid thing, if the goal wasn’t to expose more of your skin to public view???? There are plenty of other clothing choices that preserve one’s modesty in hot and muggy climates, without putting your goods on display. So, the only rational conclusion is that the goal was to put one’s goods on display. And when one puts one’s goods on display, one is an idiot if one thinks that will happen in a vacuum, and that people who lack self-restraint won’t act on their impulses to be jerks. Again, that doesn’t excuse them for being jerks, but it doesn’t reflect well on the intellect of the subject who acts as if they are totally surprised that jerks were jerks.

In the case of the gentleman who is the subject of this thread, he (A) indicates a complete understanding that some will find the shirt provocative, (B) is not surprised by the fact that the idiot woman did what she did, (C) carried himself well when the police showed up, and (D) makes a public statement that it is important for him to speak about the preservation of his rights, and that t-shirt was one such manner of speech.

I would NOT go so far as to say that open carry is an “in your face” type of provocation. It’s your right under the law if you have an LTC, and lots of perfectly normal decent people open carry with regularity. I myself open carry on occasion. However, even though I do not view open carry as an “in your face” provocation, I’m not stupid enough to deny that there are some people who WILL find it a provocation requiring a response - even though they are in the wrong about that - and those people are going to be the kind who very little self-control, and are a little bit off balance psychologically and emotionally. It hasn’t happened to me yet, but if it ever does, and I am confronted by someone who is freaking out about my OCing, I’ll probably behave exactly as the subject of this thread behaved, except that I would ALSO tell the person to mind their own business, that I am violating no laws, BUT THEY ARE IF THEY CONTINUE TO HARASS ME!!!
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#47

Post by ninjabread » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:35 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:I would NOT go so far as to say that open carry is an “in your face” type of provocation. It’s your right under the law if you have an LTC, and lots of perfectly normal decent people open carry with regularity. I myself open carry on occasion. However, even though I do not view open carry as an “in your face” provocation, I’m not stupid enough to deny that there are some people who WILL find it a provocation requiring a response - even though they are in the wrong about that - and those people are going to be the kind who very little self-control, and are a little bit off balance psychologically and emotionally. It hasn’t happened to me yet, but if it ever does, and I am confronted by someone who is freaking out about my OCing, I’ll probably behave exactly as the subject of this thread behaved, except that I would ALSO tell the person to mind their own business, that I am violating no laws, BUT THEY ARE IF THEY CONTINUE TO HARASS ME!!!
Was the subject of this thread approached by the crazy woman or was her first reaction to call the police to complain that somebody had an opinion she didn't like?
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#48

Post by ninjabread » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:43 pm

Interblog wrote:Johnston wearing that shirt is analogous to the young woman with the perky little bottom wearing the short skirt discussed in a thread gone by.
Should I call the police if I see a woman wearing a short skirt in public? :headscratch
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#49

Post by Keith B » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:50 pm

ninjabread wrote:
Interblog wrote:Johnston wearing that shirt is analogous to the young woman with the perky little bottom wearing the short skirt discussed in a thread gone by.
Should I call the police if I see a woman wearing a short skirt in public? :headscratch
Depends on if she is in style or not. If not, call the Fashion Police!! :biggrinjester:
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#50

Post by Interblog » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:20 am

Annoyed Man argues his points convincingly. There is a much larger issue at stake here. We are moving into a time period where the acceptance of personal responsibility is increasingly unpopular. Whenever a confrontation of any type occurs, many people now default to narcissistic finger-wagging at the other party, declaring themselves as innocent beyond reproach and the other as the sole source of fault in the equation, when in fact, it always takes two to tango.

The negative social consequences of this practice will be severe and far-ranging. The best thing that each of us can do in opposition to this general degradation of integrity is to consistently ask ourselves, "What part did I play in bringing about the outcomes that I see before me?" The worst thing we can do is cherry-pick the instances in which we claim our fair share of responsibility. If we only step up when the facts of the confrontation suit our individual world views and tastes, then we come across as hypocritical and disingenuous. And that will only contribute to the larger social problem.


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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#51

Post by Tex1961 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:57 am

Does anyone remember the movie "To Sir With Love" Sidney Poitier.

The main basis of the movie is trying to move these underprivileged high school kids into the real world. In one part of the movie he takes them on a field trip and does a social experiment. He has one of the young boys dressed down into their street clothes and another in a business suit. He then sends them out to try and (please excuse as I can't remember 100%) either get directions or a light for their cigarette (this is the 60's)... Anyway... What they discovered was the reactions to both young men.. The one in the suit was given respect and what he had asked for. The ruffian wasn't. He was treated with disdain and discarded and not worth their time.

There is a huge lesson to be learned here... You will be judged on your dress, your manners, your overall appearance. I don't care who you are.. That's life folks.. I believe the annoyed man in a few posts above did an excellent job on this very subject and I agree with him.
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#52

Post by apostate » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:13 am

I don't know where you live, but around here a T-shirt is far more common attire than a suit at parks.

Hollywood movies notwithstanding.
Last edited by apostate on Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#53

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:55 am

apostate wrote:I don't know where you live, but around here a T-shirt is far more common attire than a suit at parks.
It's not a matter of T-shirt v. suit, it's the provocative nature of some shirts. I wear a lot of T-shirts that have NRA or other gun/shooting related printing and I've never had anyone say a word. To my knowledge, no one even gave me a second look because of my shirt. However, if I were to wear some of the T-shirts we see at gun shows, it would likely be a different story. If I were to take my grandkids to the park wearing a "Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out" T-shirt, I should expect a negative response from other parents. So too if I wear one of the T-shirts that have a yellow smiley face with a bullet hole in the forehead and the back of the shirt has a huge and bloody exit wound.

To anti-gunners, anything that relates to guns will be provocative, but not to the general public. When the message of the shirt states or implies violent or misuse of a gun, then one can expect a negative reaction. An "NRA Sports" T-shirt or "PSC IDPA" polo shirt are not in the same league with a "Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out" T-shirt or the bloody smiley face shirt. The "You Control Your Kids and I'll Control My Guns" T-shirt falls somewhere in the middle, especially when you wear it to a park with kids playing. Most people will simply chuckle at it, some will find it provocative but not respond, but some will prove themselves to be malicious idiots like the woman in this story. You know which person the media will focus on, if they have the opportunity.

We win the undecided to our side of the Second Amendment issue by making people feel comfortable and view us as normal people, rather than dangerous "gun nuts" as our opponents falsely claim. We achieve this goal by being ambassadors for all gun owners.

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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#54

Post by puma guy » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:28 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
apostate wrote:I don't know where you live, but around here a T-shirt is far more common attire than a suit at parks.
It's not a matter of T-shirt v. suit, it's the provocative nature of some shirts. I wear a lot of T-shirts that have NRA or other gun/shooting related printing and I've never had anyone say a word. To my knowledge, no one even gave me a second look because of my shirt. However, if I were to wear some of the T-shirts we see at gun shows, it would likely be a different story. If I were to take my grandkids to the park wearing a "Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out" T-shirt, I should expect a negative response from other parents. So too if I wear one of the T-shirts that have a yellow smiley face with a bullet hole in the forehead and the back of the shirt has a huge and bloody exit wound.

To anti-gunners, anything that relates to guns will be provocative, but not to the general public. When the message of the shirt states or implies violent or misuse of a gun, then one can expect a negative reaction. An "NRA Sports" T-shirt or "PSC IDPA" polo shirt are not in the same league with a "Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out" T-shirt or the bloody smiley face shirt. The "You Control Your Kids and I'll Control My Guns" T-shirt falls somewhere in the middle, especially when you wear it to a park with kids playing. Most people will simply chuckle at it, some will find it provocative but not respond, but some will prove themselves to be malicious idiots like the woman in this story. You know which person the media will focus on, if they have the opportunity.

We win the undecided to our side of the Second Amendment issue by making people feel comfortable and view us as normal people, rather than dangerous "gun nuts" as our opponents falsely claim. We achieve this goal by being ambassadors for all gun owners.

Chas.
:iagree:
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#55

Post by The Annoyed Man » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:12 pm

ninjabread wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:I would NOT go so far as to say that open carry is an “in your face” type of provocation. It’s your right under the law if you have an LTC, and lots of perfectly normal decent people open carry with regularity. I myself open carry on occasion. However, even though I do not view open carry as an “in your face” provocation, I’m not stupid enough to deny that there are some people who WILL find it a provocation requiring a response - even though they are in the wrong about that - and those people are going to be the kind who very little self-control, and are a little bit off balance psychologically and emotionally. It hasn’t happened to me yet, but if it ever does, and I am confronted by someone who is freaking out about my OCing, I’ll probably behave exactly as the subject of this thread behaved, except that I would ALSO tell the person to mind their own business, that I am violating no laws, BUT THEY ARE IF THEY CONTINUE TO HARASS ME!!!
Was the subject of this thread approached by the crazy woman or was her first reaction to call the police to complain that somebody had an opinion she didn't like?
Sorry..... I didn’t see your question until just now. No, he was not directly approached by her....but he WAS directly approached by people who were themselves directly approached by her. As I understand it, that’s how he received the warning that the police had been called. So I assume that you would like a clarification on my part for what I posted above:
  1. If I were indirectly approached through the agency of third parties - as happened to the subject of the OP - I would most likely behave exactly as he did.
  2. If were directly approached as I previously hypothesized, then I would react exactly as I previously said I would......and then I would calmly wait for the police, just as the subject did.
I’m not into confrontation per se, but I also refuse to be chased from a locale by someone who is being a jerk, when I have every right to be there, and when the jerk’s behavior is not particularly threatening. I don’t view all acts of idiocy as necessarily dangerous. I also think that it is quite possible to verbally (and politely) warn someone that it is their behavior that is unlawful, without actually escalating the situation. It all depends on just how insistently intrusive the other person is behaving. If it were possible to studiously ignore the other person, I would do that too. I have no desire to have a confrontation, and if the situation looked like it might escalate into violence, I would most likely leave before things got to that point. But in the case of a fraudulent busybody who is trying to get everyone riled up in a public park, it seems to me that the best thing I could do would be to remain in place, remain calm, and by virtue of my actions (or lack thereof) demonstrate to all the witnesses that I am not the problem.....the other person is the problem. And in fact, that seems to be exactly what happened in the topic of this thread.

Although I am an Endowment Life Member of the NRA, I don’t own any NRA logoed apparel; and the gun-related logoed apparel I do own tends to be limited to baseball hats that were included with other purchases I’ve made. Also, those are logos that are not likely to be recognized by anyone who is not of the gun world. I have hats from BCM, Odin Works, Vortex, and LaRue Tactical. The only gun-related T-shirt I own is a “stamp collector” shirt that might not even be recognized for what it is by a lot of people IN the gun world.
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#56

Post by rotor » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:33 pm

I guess this is progress(?) when we are talking about a t-shirt and not open carry.

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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#57

Post by RPBrown » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:09 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
apostate wrote:I don't know where you live, but around here a T-shirt is far more common attire than a suit at parks.
It's not a matter of T-shirt v. suit, it's the provocative nature of some shirts. I wear a lot of T-shirts that have NRA or other gun/shooting related printing and I've never had anyone say a word. To my knowledge, no one even gave me a second look because of my shirt. However, if I were to wear some of the T-shirts we see at gun shows, it would likely be a different story. If I were to take my grandkids to the park wearing a "Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out" T-shirt, I should expect a negative response from other parents. So too if I wear one of the T-shirts that have a yellow smiley face with a bullet hole in the forehead and the back of the shirt has a huge and bloody exit wound.

To anti-gunners, anything that relates to guns will be provocative, but not to the general public. When the message of the shirt states or implies violent or misuse of a gun, then one can expect a negative reaction. An "NRA Sports" T-shirt or "PSC IDPA" polo shirt are not in the same league with a "Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out" T-shirt or the bloody smiley face shirt. The "You Control Your Kids and I'll Control My Guns" T-shirt falls somewhere in the middle, especially when you wear it to a park with kids playing. Most people will simply chuckle at it, some will find it provocative but not respond, but some will prove themselves to be malicious idiots like the woman in this story. You know which person the media will focus on, if they have the opportunity.

We win the undecided to our side of the Second Amendment issue by making people feel comfortable and view us as normal people, rather than dangerous "gun nuts" as our opponents falsely claim. We achieve this goal by being ambassadors for all gun owners.

Chas.
I somewhat agree with Charles on this, however, I have had 3 instances where something has been said loud enough for me to hear about a shirt I was wearing. The first was an NRA tshirt and a lady made the comment"there goes one of those gun nuts" . The second was as a member of a motorcycle ministry, we were riding to pray over a man we all knew that was in the hospital. We all had t-shirts with our logo which is similar to a Celtic cross with a motorcycle in it. Now, we were no where near our motorcycles but on the 3rd floor of the hospital and a woman made the comment about how we were a "bunch of filthy bikers and God would punish us for our misdoings". The 3rd time is I guess the one that probably upset me the most. As you probably know by my signature, I am a Mason. Our lodge contributes to and does work for the "Fantastic Teeth" program. This is where we get toothbrushes, tooth paste, floss and comic style pamphlets and go to the schools to give them to the nurse to distribute to the less fortunate kids. A couple of years ago, we did this for 2 schools close to our lodge. The principle was so moved by it that she had us come to the next program so they could present us with a "thank you certificate". Rather than have all of us go, our 3 main officers, of which I am one, went to receive the certificate. We wore t-shirts with our masonic emblem on them. I noticed as we entered the auditorium that a lady was really staring at us but I just figured that she didn't know why 3 men not affiliated with the school were there. After the program as we were leaving she made it a point to come up us and say " I wouldn't let my child have one of those kits. I'd be afraid you devil worshipers had put poison or drugs on them". As much as I wanted to say something, I was a good boy and laughed it off.
It just goes to show that no matter what, you will run into people that will not agree with you views and won't even try.
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#58

Post by Tex1961 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:20 pm

RPBrown wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
apostate wrote:. I noticed as we entered the auditorium that a lady was really staring at us but I just figured that she didn't know why 3 men not affiliated with the school were there. After the program as we were leaving she made it a point to come up us and say " I wouldn't let my child have one of those kits. I'd be afraid you devil worshipers had put poison or drugs on them". As much as I wanted to say something, I was a good boy and laughed it off.
It just goes to show that no matter what, you will run into people that will not agree with you views and won't even try.
Sometimes you just can't fix stupid
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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#59

Post by Interblog » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:12 pm

I would be surprised if there was a person out there who couldn't claim a stereotyping story of some sort. I have very short salt-and-pepper hair which I cannot and will not dye (lap swimmer), and I don't wear make-up, do my nails, or wear heels. Occasionally I get addressed in a disrespectful way because the speaker assumes I am a lesbian when in fact I'm a married heterosexual woman. My husband wears his "garage" clothes to the hardware store and occasionally gets treated like PWT who maybe crawled in the door to steal something. It never ends.


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Re: Benbrook PD Called for Gun Tshirt in Park

#60

Post by ninjabread » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:48 pm

puma guy wrote:
Charles L. Cotton wrote:
apostate wrote:I don't know where you live, but around here a T-shirt is far more common attire than a suit at parks.
It's not a matter of T-shirt v. suit, it's the provocative nature of some shirts. I wear a lot of T-shirts that have NRA or other gun/shooting related printing and I've never had anyone say a word. To my knowledge, no one even gave me a second look because of my shirt. However, if I were to wear some of the T-shirts we see at gun shows, it would likely be a different story. If I were to take my grandkids to the park wearing a "Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out" T-shirt, I should expect a negative response from other parents. So too if I wear one of the T-shirts that have a yellow smiley face with a bullet hole in the forehead and the back of the shirt has a huge and bloody exit wound.

To anti-gunners, anything that relates to guns will be provocative, but not to the general public. When the message of the shirt states or implies violent or misuse of a gun, then one can expect a negative reaction. An "NRA Sports" T-shirt or "PSC IDPA" polo shirt are not in the same league with a "Kill Them All and Let God Sort It Out" T-shirt or the bloody smiley face shirt. The "You Control Your Kids and I'll Control My Guns" T-shirt falls somewhere in the middle, especially when you wear it to a park with kids playing. Most people will simply chuckle at it, some will find it provocative but not respond, but some will prove themselves to be malicious idiots like the woman in this story. You know which person the media will focus on, if they have the opportunity.

We win the undecided to our side of the Second Amendment issue by making people feel comfortable and view us as normal people, rather than dangerous "gun nuts" as our opponents falsely claim. We achieve this goal by being ambassadors for all gun owners.

Chas.
:iagree:
:iagree:
This is my opinion. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

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