Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#16

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri May 24, 2019 9:17 am

Funny.... I have a slightly different take on this. There’s a whole lot of whining going on here.

I own and have carried 1911s, Glocks, and revolvers - but I am left handed, and with the exception of ambidextrous safety levers on my 1911s, none of these guns have (prior to Glock gen5, which I don’t own yet) offer fully left handed controls. You can reverse the mag release button on gen4 Glocks, but you’re still left with a right-handed slide lock/release lever. And to lock the slide back on an empty pistol without a mag in it, I have to transfer the gun to my off hand and do it "right-handed". The ONLY pistol I’ve ever owned that came fully ambidextrous out of the box is my full-sized M&P45 - and even its left handed slide release doesn’t have as positive of a feel as the one on the other side of the pistol.

On my 1911s, I was able to use my trigger finger to reach both the magazine release button and the slide release lever, but it wasn’t as strong a move as finally adopting the method on all of my semiautos of using my off hand to grab the slide over the top at the rear and release it that way. I’m sure that slows down a magazine swap by some fraction of a second with semiautos. And revolver reloads require that I actually transfer the gun to my off hand, push the cylinder open with that hand, reload the cylinder with my shooting hand, close the cylinder with my shooting hand, transfer the gun back to my shooting hand, and resume firing. It’s ridiculous and takes too long, and it’s the primary reason that I don’t EDC a revolver as a primary weapon. Im not complaining, that’s just the way things are if you’re left-handed, but most of you guys have it way too easy and don’t seem to appreciate the convenience you enjoy.

I am seriously considering trading in my gen4 G19 and G17 for their Gen5 equivalents, just so I can get some parity with what right-handed shooters take for granted.

Then maybe I can start whining about small potatoes too. :mrgreen:
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#17

Post by suthdj » Fri May 24, 2019 9:22 am

What I learned was don't buy a Wilson it cant take being man handled. It's funny how a firearm named Wilson combat cant seem to handle a combat environment. I will stick to a glock it is less pickey.
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#18

Post by G.A. Heath » Fri May 24, 2019 9:43 am

Bitter Clinger wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:05 am
G.A. Heath wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 11:55 pm
While the barrel lugs on a Glock don't take as much of a beating, they still get one and will show signs of damage after enough empty slide releases. The takedown lever "fix" only transfers the stress (and eventual damage) from the takedown lever to the locking block and frame.

I saw a pre-gen3 Glock that had lockup issues many years ago at the range, the locking lugs on the barrel and slide had been peened extensively. How did they get that way? I don't know for sure but the only thing I could think of was someone releasing the slide with the thing empty. Another thing I would point out is that every point that they make is valid especially slide release and revolver slam issues.
I think you just made my point for me!

You had a early "pre Gen 3" Glock, probably from just past the early bronze period? So an inexpensive, and at this point completely outdated polymer pistol. But Wilson's expensive, custom made 1911 has apparently similar weaknesses.

I'm sorry but I have seen Wilson's $3600+ 9mm 1911 jam, FTF, and lockup during training. When it works its a tack driver and definitely more accurate than a polymer striker fired handgun, but it's finicky wrt what ammunition it will accept and hardly reliable enough to be an EDC.

To post a video that essentially sends a message of hey dummy, you are not smart enough to appreciate my overpriced firearms - but I still want your money - is either the world's most brilliant reverse psychology marketing ploy, or an emerging display of hubris signaling the beginning of the end for Wilson. Time will tell.
Actually I didn't make your point, unless your point is that EVERY semi auto handgun can be damaged by improper handling in the fashion described about (If that is the case then I apologize for somehow misreading your posts). The design of the trigger mechanisms on the two platforms and their potential for damage (The Glock having minimal potential) from this type of bad handling was very well explained in the video, however the lockup issue is far more critical as it affects the barrel to slide fitment. While Glock fanboys will say something to the effect "Muh Glockenspiel dose nut have to have the barrel and slide fitmented to dee udder." (English translation: You don't have to fit a Glock slide and barrel to each other) they fail to understand that fitment is performed by the components being in spec. Peen the slide and barrel where they lock up and now you have lost that fitment due to being out of spec. As the damage progresses the performance of the firearm will begin to suffer while in extreme cases such damage can actually cause a potentially dangerous situation in ANY locking breach firearm.

EDIT TO NOTE: The above use of fanboy was a typo, the term I meant to use was fanbot.
Last edited by G.A. Heath on Fri May 24, 2019 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#19

Post by Bitter Clinger » Fri May 24, 2019 10:10 am

G.A. Heath wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:43 am
Bitter Clinger wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:05 am
G.A. Heath wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 11:55 pm
While the barrel lugs on a Glock don't take as much of a beating, they still get one and will show signs of damage after enough empty slide releases. The takedown lever "fix" only transfers the stress (and eventual damage) from the takedown lever to the locking block and frame.

I saw a pre-gen3 Glock that had lockup issues many years ago at the range, the locking lugs on the barrel and slide had been peened extensively. How did they get that way? I don't know for sure but the only thing I could think of was someone releasing the slide with the thing empty. Another thing I would point out is that every point that they make is valid especially slide release and revolver slam issues.
I think you just made my point for me!

You had a early "pre Gen 3" Glock, probably from just past the early bronze period? So an inexpensive, and at this point completely outdated polymer pistol. But Wilson's expensive, custom made 1911 has apparently similar weaknesses.

I'm sorry but I have seen Wilson's $3600+ 9mm 1911 jam, FTF, and lockup during training. When it works its a tack driver and definitely more accurate than a polymer striker fired handgun, but it's finicky wrt what ammunition it will accept and hardly reliable enough to be an EDC.

To post a video that essentially sends a message of hey dummy, you are not smart enough to appreciate my overpriced firearms - but I still want your money - is either the world's most brilliant reverse psychology marketing ploy, or an emerging display of hubris signaling the beginning of the end for Wilson. Time will tell.
Actually I didn't make your point, unless your point is that EVERY semi auto handgun can be damaged by improper handling in the fashion described about (If that is the case then I apologize for somehow misreading your posts). The design of the trigger mechanisms on the two platforms and their potential for damage (The Glock having minimal potential) from this type of bad handling was very well explained in the video, however the lockup issue is far more critical as it affects the barrel to slide fitment. While Glock fanboys will say something to the effect "Muh Glockenspiel dose nut have to have the barrel and slide fitmented to dee udder." (English translation: You don't have to fit a Glock slide and barrel to each other) they fail to understand that fitment is performed by the components being in spec. Peen the slide and barrel where they lock up and now you have lost that fitment due to being out of spec. As the damage progresses the performance of the firearm will begin to suffer while in extreme cases such damage can actually cause a potentially dangerous situation in ANY locking breach firearm.
Perfect. So please provide your risk assessment comparing the potential, as well actual, reliability failures across the two platforms based on recorded, verified lifetime field data. That would be highly instructive.

And rest assured, I did not assume that your derogatory comment regarding "fanboys" applied to anybody on this forum.
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#20

Post by G.A. Heath » Fri May 24, 2019 10:29 am

Bitter Clinger wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:10 am
Perfect. So please provide your risk assessment comparing the potential, as well actual, reliability failures across the two platforms based on recorded, verified lifetime field data. That would be highly instructive.

And rest assured, I did not assume that your derogatory comment regarding "fanboys" applied to anybody on this forum.
I have seen one firearm with sufficient damage from peening that it would not function (That one firearm was a Glock), however you have two very well respected gunsmiths in the video saying that something which causes said peening is extremely bad. Perhaps you should contact them.

As for the fanboy comment, everything has fanboys and everyone is a fanboy/girl of something, it's human nature. Ironically the fanboy comment was a typo and meant to be fanbot (My fat fingers, sorry). I won't change the use in above post but I will edit it to reflect that I made a typo.

Let me explain to you what a fanbot is. A fanbot is an extreme fanboy who spews forth the marketing hype and internet praise of something without thinking about what they are saying. The two fanbots I can not stand more than anything are Glock Fanbots and 1911 Fanbots. You have seen my example of how I feel about Glock Fanbots, let me give you my example of a 1911 fanbot: "Its oder a hundred beers olden and unchanged! Its eden its owner tul set." (English Translation: It was designed over a century ago and is unchanged, it even provides you with the tools to take it apart!) Fanboys can be irritating at times, fanbots are far worse. Most of the time the fanbots tend to get them selves banned from here when they come in and try to start 1911 Vs. Glock, OCT Vs TSRA, or caliber wars so no I did not intend to make derogatory statement about anyone here.
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#21

Post by Bitter Clinger » Fri May 24, 2019 11:17 am

G.A. Heath wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:29 am
Bitter Clinger wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:10 am
Perfect. So please provide your risk assessment comparing the potential, as well actual, reliability failures across the two platforms based on recorded, verified lifetime field data. That would be highly instructive.

And rest assured, I did not assume that your derogatory comment regarding "fanboys" applied to anybody on this forum.
I have seen one firearm with sufficient damage from peening that it would not function (That one firearm was a Glock), however you have two very well respected gunsmiths in the video saying that something which causes said peening is extremely bad. Perhaps you should contact them.
No thanks. If I want to be treated like I am not good enough to buy some overpriced product, I can always take a trip to Europe.
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#22

Post by Malawler » Fri May 24, 2019 12:00 pm

Simple question.....If YOU think that it is a 'bad thing' to drop the slide with the supplied lever, then why is said lever shaped in such a manner to facilitate doing so? Simple solution.....Make YOUR gun without such a specifically shaped lever to do so. :roll:

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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#23

Post by suthdj » Fri May 24, 2019 12:06 pm

Malawler wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:00 pm
Simple question.....If YOU think that it is a 'bad thing' to drop the slide with the supplied lever, then why is said lever shaped in such a manner to facilitate doing so? Simple solution.....Make YOUR gun without such a specifically shaped lever to do so. :roll:
Hmmm that actually makes sense.
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#24

Post by G.A. Heath » Fri May 24, 2019 12:22 pm

Malawler wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:00 pm
Simple question.....If YOU think that it is a 'bad thing' to drop the slide with the supplied lever, then why is said lever shaped in such a manner to facilitate doing so? Simple solution.....Make YOUR gun without such a specifically shaped lever to do so. :roll:
It's dropping slide without feeding a round from the magazine that causes a problem, not using the slide lever.
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#25

Post by flechero » Fri May 24, 2019 1:41 pm

I'm with TAM, the whining is jr high and taken way out of context.

It's like people are offended because they think dropping an empty slide should be OK just because they didn't know it was not. The video comments began in reference to the 2.5lb trigger job on a supergrade (not a combat gun) and how repeatedly dropping the slide empty can damage the sear/hammer hook surfaces and cause follow. They then took it further and explained how it can damage any gun, including your favorite plastic ones.
suthdj wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:22 am
What I learned was don't buy a Wilson it cant take being man handled. It's funny how a firearm named Wilson combat cant seem to handle a combat environment. I will stick to a glock it is less pickey.
Chevy makes trucks, by your logic- if a corvette failed while pulling a dump trailer into the landfill, all chevy's are junk and can't be man handled. great point! :thumbs2:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Bill Wilson was never in any danger of acquiring you as a customer, and he is probably very thankful for that. :lol:


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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#26

Post by montgomery » Fri May 24, 2019 1:49 pm

flechero wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:41 pm
I'm with TAM, the whining is jr high and taken way out of context.

It's like people are offended because they think dropping an empty slide should be OK just because they didn't know it was not. The video comments began in reference to the 2.5lb trigger job on a supergrade (not a combat gun) and how repeatedly dropping the slide empty can damage the sear/hammer hook surfaces and cause follow. They then took it further and explained how it can damage any gun, including your favorite plastic ones.
suthdj wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:22 am
What I learned was don't buy a Wilson it cant take being man handled. It's funny how a firearm named Wilson combat cant seem to handle a combat environment. I will stick to a glock it is less pickey.
Chevy makes trucks, by your logic- if a corvette failed while pulling a dump trailer into the landfill, all chevy's are junk and can't be man handled. great point! :thumbs2:

I have a sneaking suspicion that Bill Wilson was never in any danger of acquiring you as a customer, and he is probably very thankful for that. :lol:
:iagree:

Reckon those that use the slide stop lever as a slide release button did not like being called out as an amateur by genuine professional gunslingers. "rlol"

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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#27

Post by AndyC » Fri May 24, 2019 1:58 pm

G.A. Heath wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:22 pm
Malawler wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:00 pm
Simple question.....If YOU think that it is a 'bad thing' to drop the slide with the supplied lever, then why is said lever shaped in such a manner to facilitate doing so? Simple solution.....Make YOUR gun without such a specifically shaped lever to do so. :roll:
It's dropping slide without feeding a round from the magazine that causes a problem, not using the slide lever.
Bingo.

I use the slide-stop 99% of the time to drop the slide - with a loaded magazine in the chute. Amazing how people misquote things, but I remain amused by all the butt-hurt. As for Hackathorn - yeah, he can be a tad holier-than-thou but 1) he knows his stuff and 2) I'm secure enough that it doesn't ruffle my feathers.
Last edited by AndyC on Fri May 24, 2019 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#28

Post by AndyC » Fri May 24, 2019 2:07 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:17 am
..revolver reloads require that I actually transfer the gun to my off hand, push the cylinder open with that hand, reload the cylinder with my shooting hand, close the cylinder with my shooting hand, transfer the gun back to my shooting hand, and resume firing. It’s ridiculous and takes too long, and it’s the primary reason that I don’t EDC a revolver as a primary weapon. Im not complaining, that’s just the way things are if you’re left-handed, but most of you guys have it way too easy and don’t seem to appreciate the convenience you enjoy.
Well, Ayoob's StressFire reload-method does things in a similar method for right-handers (not literally step-by-tep as you do, but also involves transferring the revolver to the off-hand) - and it's still pretty quick, assuming you have speedloaders:



It's one reason I had that Couger built; I used to be pretty quick with that method but had atrophied over the years due to having zero revolvers around.
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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#29

Post by rotor » Fri May 24, 2019 3:36 pm

Liberty wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 5:59 am
I learned something. I never thought much about releasing the slide on an empty chamber. Bad habit. I would do that once every time I cleaned my weapons.

Now I know better. Cocky attitude or not. The video was worth watching.

I might not like the way Trump, Hackathorn or Wilson say it, but when they speak, it's usually worthwhile to pay attention.
I learned something too.


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Re: Gun-handling - Ken Hackathorn and Bill Wilson go off

#30

Post by surprise_i'm_armed » Sun May 26, 2019 3:29 pm

With regard to closing the cylinder on a revolver, Ken is shown on the video placing his fingers on the cylinder and pushing it closed, which is much better than snapping it sharply to the right to close it.

However, before Gander Mountain Frisco closed (shortly after opening, by the way!), a gentleman working the gun counter opined to me that the best way to close a revolver is to push on the crane, instead of the cylinder.

What does anyone think about pushing on a revolver's crane to close the cylinder, as opposed to pushing the cylinder itself? Would pushing on the crane somehow assure that the cylinder was positioned optimally for firing?

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