Teach me about buying suppressors

[Vol Texan]

I don't have any NFA items (yet), and I'm considering getting my first suppressor.

I've seen plenty on this forum on how folks get an NFA trust, but my question is 'why'? What's the value proposition of getting an NFA trust vs. not doing one?

I welcome input from all the folks who've been down this path before.

After I do that (if I do it) then what are the steps that I need to do to keep everything legal?

VT

[Jago668]

Used to a trust bypassed the need for a chief law enforcement sign off on you getting an NFA item. Huge bonus for those living where a sheriff and chief of police wouldn't sign. Also if I remember correctly didn't have to send fingerprints in for everyone on the trust.

That changed a few years ago. Now every responsible party on the trust has to send in fingerprints and pictures like an individual. Neither a trust nor an individual need a CLEO sign off. So the biggest advantage of a trust is allowing multiple people to use a silencer, or sbr, etc. It is the way I went, so my wife can use my nfa stuff, and later on my daughter. They also bypass probate courts, and you can use a trust for other things as well for passing down to those you wish.

You can also use a corporation for getting nfa items as well, but I don't know anything about that. Someone on here does if I remember correctly, a couple of posts about it.

[carlson1]

If I had a chance to do it all over I wouldn't. That is my personal advice.

[jason812]

If I had a chance to do it all over I wouldn't. That is my personal advice.

You wouldn't get an NFA item or trust?

[carlson1]

Personally I would not. I have an SBR and a suppressor. I guess I haven’t found out how they have benefited me. It is much less trouble to travel with my DD M18 pistol with a law tactical folder than trying to jump through hoops too take my SBR. With the threat of taking suppressors away from us I just don’t see the benefit for me. It may be great for others, but I feel I wasted good money.

I did everything legal, paid money, waited for ever and now with the threat of a strike with an ink pen they can take my suppressor back. Doesn’t set well.

[srothstein]

I think you should strongly consider Carlson1's point of view. I see no benefit to having any NFA weapon, including suppressors.

Having said that, I still want some. I like full auto for fun. It is no use to me for anything but fun. I could see me trying a suppressor, but I don't see it really doing anything for me but being a toy. For me, that is a personal decision and I would spend the money if I had it for the toys I want. Since I don't have it (I spend enough on non-NFA weapons now according to my wife), I won't get one. And because it is just a toy for fun, I doubt it would be high on the list when I got a little extra cash. A lottery win might change that opinion.

And this is not just firearms related. I have looked several times at buying a boat, and each time I figured it would be more trouble than it was worth. I honestly can see me buying a boat and using it for the first several weekends, slowing down after a few. And by the time it is six months old, if I used it twice a year I would be surprised. So, no boats for me yet.

But as for your question on trusts or not, I think it has been answered already. The advantages of a trust now are almost the same as for any other trust - inheritance mostly. It also allows more people to use the weapon without you there as any trustee can use it. As a counterpoint, it does raise the cost of the NFA item a little by any fees needed for setting up the trust. The way around the sending everyone in for background checks is to create the trust with just you on it at first, then after you get the NFA item, you can modify the trust to include others. This raises the cost even more though.

If I were going for a NFA weapon, I would use the trust. But I already pointed out that I would not be going NFA without a lottery win and at that point, I am sure I would not mind the additional cost too much.

[Hack Job]

What's the value proposition of getting an NFA trust vs. not doing one?

After I do that (if I do it) then what are the steps that I need to do to keep everything legal?

For me, the value of the trust is two things: NFA items can be legally possessed by more than one person and for legal transfer to beneficiaries in the event of tragedy.

First, with the trust my spouse (and children, if of-age) has full legal access to possess and use NFA items when I'm out on business, at the store, in the backyard or whatever. Otherwise, from what I understand if my spouse has access to the items when I'm not immediately in the vicinity there could be legal risk. Second, I understand the trust is to also aid in preventing legal hassles in regards to transfer to beneficiaries - as they are already 'owners' of the NFA items.

You can get trusts from reputable sources for $100, it takes about 10 minutes. It adds basically zero steps to NFA form processes, other than each person on the trust has to be listed. Really, if a person is married (or plans to be someday), I don't see any risk in having a trust, only benefits. So why would a person not get a trust if you plan to have NFA items?

There are some really helpful NFA FAQs and walk-thru at https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/.

And if you are wanting a suppressor, Form 1's (for DIY folks) can be done online with turn-times lately of about a month. My last one was 13 days. There are some really amazing kits out there that just require some drilling to be completed. I believe Form 4 (if purchasing) can only be mailed and the turn-times are 12 to 18 months.


Additionally, and this is just my observation from several recent threads, is I'm really surprised at the apathy and general lack of care from many individuals in this forum that there is a chance that suppressors might be made illegal - just as bumpstocks were. I did not own a bumpstock but it really surprised and concerns me with the speed and ease with which they were made illegal. And now a second item is being discussed to be made illegal - at what point does one get concerned? Seems like a terrible precedent was set. In my mind this follows the same logic as those who only have bolt guns thinking that why would any one need an AR and since I don't have one anyway who cares what happens as this doesn't affect me anyway.

[mrvmax]

I would stick with a trust simply due to making it easier for others to keep the NFA items due to a death. I got mine using my LLC which was easier at the time but I would not suggest doing that, I’m not even sure how things may have changed since I got mine. If you are worried about the govt coming and taking it then do not buy them but people think the same thing about high cap mags, AR’s etc. etc. I have not seen a real threat where I think I will have to turn mine in and I do not think it will happen in my life time. I just choose not to live my life worrying about things I cannot control and I will enjoy what I have in the mean time.

[The Annoyed Man]

Used to a trust bypassed the need for a chief law enforcement sign off on you getting an NFA item. Huge bonus for those living where a sheriff and chief of police wouldn't sign. Also if I remember correctly didn't have to send fingerprints in for everyone on the trust.

That changed a few years ago. Now every responsible party on the trust has to send in fingerprints and pictures like an individual. Neither a trust nor an individual need a CLEO sign off. So the biggeqst advantage of a trust is allowing multiple people to use a silencer, or sbr, etc. It is the way I went, so my wife can use my nfa stuff, and later on my daughter. They also bypass probate courts, and you can use a trust for other things as well for passing down to those you wish.

You can also use a corporation for getting nfa items as well, but I don't know anything about that. Someone on here does if I remember correctly, a couple of posts about it.

There are advantages to a trust. If you want your heirs to inherit your NFA items on your passing, you can have a multigenerational trust. I am no lawyer, but my understanding of a basic trust is that, while you are still alive, any named trustees can access/possess/use the items. But on your passing, they lose that access. Going the multigenerational route, they continue to enjoy access after your death. The caveat is that any trustees have to be over 18 (or is it 21?) when they are added to the trust. So when I die, my son, wife, and daughter in law will retain lawful possession and use of any items listed on the trust. For now, my grandkids will not, because they are too young to be added to the trust, and they have to be added by me as the Settlor....and even then, I’m not sure if I can add a 3rd generation like that. It can’t be done by one of the trustees. So if I’m no longer alive, then it’s too late to add my grandkids to the trust.

IANAL, so if there’s a legal eagle around who wants to double check me and correct as necessary, I’d appreciate it.

WITHOUT a trust, on your passing, there would be a complex transfer process, involving the ATF, the forms, and the $200 tax stamps per item. And then there’s the question of who takes and controls the items until the transfer from your estate to your heirs is complete. The ATF might just confiscate them, and you will have lost a much bigger investment in NFA items plus tax stamps than the relatively minor cost of setting up the trust. So yeah, it costs something to set a multigenerational trust up....usually FAR less than the price of a single suppressor....and it eliminates the problem of transfer to your heirs on your death. It’s been a minute, but I recall that the cost of my trust was $275. The cost of my first NFA item, an AAC 762-SDN-6 suppressor, was $830 plus the $200 stamp, if that helps you to put things into perspective.

[Jago668]

Used to a trust bypassed the need for a chief law enforcement sign off on you getting an NFA item. Huge bonus for those living where a sheriff and chief of police wouldn't sign. Also if I remember correctly didn't have to send fingerprints in for everyone on the trust.

That changed a few years ago. Now every responsible party on the trust has to send in fingerprints and pictures like an individual. Neither a trust nor an individual need a CLEO sign off. So the biggeqst advantage of a trust is allowing multiple people to use a silencer, or sbr, etc. It is the way I went, so my wife can use my nfa stuff, and later on my daughter. They also bypass probate courts, and you can use a trust for other things as well for passing down to those you wish.

You can also use a corporation for getting nfa items as well, but I don't know anything about that. Someone on here does if I remember correctly, a couple of posts about it.

There are advantages to a trust. If you want your heirs to inherit your NFA items on your passing, you can have a multigenerational trust. I am no lawyer, but my understanding of a basic trust is that, while you are still alive, any named trustees can access/possess/use the items. But on your passing, they lose that access. Going the multigenerational route, they continue to enjoy access after your death. The caveat is that any trustees have to be over 18 (or is it 21?) when they are added to the trust. So when I die, my son, wife, and daughter in law will retain lawful possession and use of any items listed on the trust. For now, my grandkids will not, because they are too young to be added to the trust, and they have to be added by me as the Settlor....and even then, I’m not sure if I can add a 3rd generation like that. It can’t be done by one of the trustees. So if I’m no longer alive, then it’s too late to add my grandkids to the trust.

IANAL, so if there’s a legal eagle around who wants to double check me and correct as necessary, I’d appreciate it.

WITHOUT a trust, on your passing, there would be a complex transfer process, involving the ATF, the forms, and the $200 tax stamps per item. And then there’s the question of who takes and controls the items until the transfer from your estate to your heirs is complete. The ATF might just confiscate them, and you will have lost a much bigger investment in NFA items plus tax stamps than the relatively minor cost of setting up the trust. So yeah, it costs something to set a multigenerational trust up....usually FAR less than the price of a single suppressor....and it eliminates the problem of transfer to your heirs on your death. It’s been a minute, but I recall that the cost of my trust was $275. The cost of my first NFA item, an AAC 762-SDN-6 suppressor, was $830 plus the $200 stamp, if that helps you to put things into perspective.

My trust is multi-generational. It is setup so that it automatically follows the blood heirs of my mother. She is listed as a benefactor but not a trustee, and thus doesn't need to do the fingerprints/pictures. As an only child, that would flow to me, and thus to my daughter. If I'm still alive when she turns 18 I will make her a trustee and send in the stuff for a responsible person (it's only 21 if you are buying from an FFL from my understanding).

On the transfering after death without a trust, you can do a Form 5 transfer that is tax exempt. There is more hoops to jump through, but no need for another $200 tax stamp. I'm not for sure how all that goes with benefactors on the trust that aren't trustees at the time of the setlor's death.

[The Annoyed Man]

I’ll have to view my trust for benefactors. It’s been a while since I read it last. I might be wrong about my grandkids.

Ok, I had it wrong. Here’s what it says about trusties and beneficiaries:

ARTICLE II.
IDENTIFICATION OF BENEFICIARIES

The Primary Beneficiaries of this trust are The Annoyed Wife, The Annoyed Son, and The Annoyed Daughter in Law. The Secondary Beneficiaries of the Trust are the descendants of the Primary Beneficiaries thereof, who are living from time to time throughout the duration of the trust, as is hereinafter defined and limited. (I guess this covers my grandkids)

ARTICLE III.
TRUSTEES AND SUCCESSION

For as long as Settlor is living, Settlor shall serve as the initial Settlor-Trustee of the trust until Settlor’s death, resignation, or “Disability” (as that term is hereinafter defined).

For as long as The Annoyed Wife, The Annoyed Son, and The Annoyed Daughter in Law are living, they shall serve as the initial non-settlor Trustees of the trust, until such time as they cease to serve as a result of their individual death, resignation, or “Disability.”

At such time that all of the initial Settlor and Non-Settlor Trustees all should for any reason fail to become or cease to serve as Trustee, then the successor Trustees shall be appointed or named in the following order:

1. If one or more of the then living Beneficiaries is over the age of 18 and is not otherwise prohibited from possession of Title 1 or Title 2 (Class 3) firearms or other items regulated by the National Firearms Act, then they shall be appointed as Co-Trustees, or the survivor of them as sole Trustee;
2. If none of the then living beneficiaries are over the age of 18 and/or are otherwise prohibited from possession of Title 1 or Title 2 (Class 3) firearms or other items regulated by the National Firearms Act, then such one or more adult persons, or such one or more legal entities empowered to administer trusts, as the last of the initial Trustees shall appoint by a signed instrument (including a Will) specifically referring to this limited power of appointment; and
3. If no successor trustee is appointed in such manner as described above, then such one or more adult person, or such one or more legal entities empowered to administer trusts, as elected by unanimous consent of the then living beneficiaries of the trust or their legal guardians if the then living beneficiaries are under the age of 18.

So I guess that my grandkids, who are beneficiaries, can inherit and use the NFA items if they are upgraded from beneficiaries to co-trustees when they turn 18. BUT I recall that being as far as it goes. I do not believe they can add their kids (my great grandkids) to the trust. I’ll have to consult again with the attorney who wrote it up for me.

[Jago668]

Mine is setup the same as yours. Just with my mother listed as primary beneficiary, as my daughter wasn't born yet. The lawyer I used was Mark Toronjo, and according to him it should follow the heirs down. So my daughter, to her kids, and on down until there aren't anymore. By all means talk to your lawyer, I'm just telling you what I remember from a conversation over 2 years ago.

[Scott B.]

WITHOUT a trust, on your passing, there would be a complex transfer process, involving the ATF, the forms, and the $200 tax stamps per item.

This is no longer true. Part of 41F was to clear up that individually owned NFA items can be passed to your heirs, tax free, on a Form 5. You need to state who gets the property in the event of your death, and it's helpful to fill out a sample Form 5 so they won't have to figure it all out.

If you want NFA toys, buy them. Right now the wait times are ridiculous, unless you're doing an eForm 1 (building it).

ATF has allowed the executor—or other person authorized under State law to dispose of property in an estate—to convey firearms registered to the decedent without being treated as a voluntary transfer under the NFA. ATF has also allowed such transfers to be made on a tax-exempt basis when an ATF Form 5 is submitted and approved in accordance with 27 CFR 479.90. When the transfer of the firearm is to persons who are not lawful heirs, however, the executor is required to file an ATF Form 4 and to pay any transfer tax in accordance with 27 CFR 479.84.

[narcissist]

Used to a trust bypassed the need for a chief law enforcement sign off on you getting an NFA item. Huge bonus for those living where a sheriff and chief of police wouldn't sign. Also if I remember correctly didn't have to send fingerprints in for everyone on the trust.

That changed a few years ago. Now every responsible party on the trust has to send in fingerprints and pictures like an individual. Neither a trust nor an individual need a CLEO sign off. So the biggest advantage of a trust is allowing multiple people to use a silencer, or sbr, etc. It is the way I went, so my wife can use my nfa stuff, and later on my daughter. They also bypass probate courts, and you can use a trust for other things as well for passing down to those you wish.

You can also use a corporation for getting nfa items as well, but I don't know anything about that. Someone on here does if I remember correctly, a couple of posts about it.

Your right about putting the Class III item into a trust, the only thing is they do still contact your CLEO and inform him of who has what. Also if there's any reason he has to believe you should not own the item he can and will inform them. In certain parts of tx they use the excuse the person is in a gang or currently under investigation, even with no proof you can still be denied.