What Can Someone Tell Me About A Tavor

[ShepherdTX]

I have a Tavor SAR and I absolutely love it, despite some of it's cons.

If you do get one and it ends up becoming a favorite, I would highly recommend taking the IWI Tavor Operator classes.
I did the Tavor 1 and it's totally worth it.


Pros:
The weight is biased rearward so it's more comfortable to hold and shoot over longer periods of time without tiring as quickly.
One handed operation is great. holding on to loved ones, calling 911 with offhand all easily done while still keeping the rifle up.
It's very reliable and easy to maintain
You can get several points of contact on it for solid good stability when shooting standing/kneeling.
The bullpup design is great for moving around in enclosed places, opening doors, shooting around corners, etc..
There's conversion kits for 300blk and 9mm. I got a 300blk setup on it now and plan to take it hog hunting someday.
It can fit in a nondescript tennis racket sized bag


Cons:
The manual of arms is different than an AR. SAR mag changes take practice, but I can do it as fast or faster than with an AR platform. Its not as different on the X95 with respect to the magazine release design change. Also charging handle is relocated on the X95 vs SAR.
The stock trigger and trigger pack (on a SAR, I've heard its better on X95) is pretty heavy with a lot of travel.
Height over barrel is more obvious. Just something to be aware of when shooting around obstacles and at range.
Speaking of range, while it can hit things at distance, it seems to take more practice/effort compared to AR platform.
The straight stock on the Tavor can be a challenge for cheek weld and may also interfere with ear protection (depending on type).

Other accessories I would suggest along with it:

* Geissele lightning bow trigger. I'd say this even for an X95
* Geissele trigger pack, a must for SAR.
* A good sling (I like the savvy sniper)
* Manticore ARClight forend for a sweet looking internal light setup.

[K-Texas]

Maybe a question worth considering, how many Special Operations units use Bullpups? The Brits are a perfect example where you won't see anyone in the SAS, SBS or Marine Commandos carrying the weapon supplied to mainline troops. They'll likely be carrying the M4, or maybe the FN SCAR while German units use the HK 416 or even the G36.

The Israelis might be a different case, and I do not know what ammo they use officially, or even if it is actually 5.56mm NATO. Calling a .223 REM cartridge 5.56mm NATO, or labeling ammo boxes as such, isn't quite the same thing. For any of our Spec Ops who have autonomy over their carry weapons, offer them a shoulder fired weapon with lackluster accuracy and No Thanks might not be the polite response.

The Mk 262 Mod 0 load, that has been since superseded, Chris Kyle mostly developed it for AR platforms and Scars with 16" barrels with 1 in 8" twist rates or 1 in 7". If you don't need the capability of a 75/77 gr. Open-Tip Match bullet that can tumble out to 300 yards, requiring a minimum of 2700 FPS at the muzzle, there are several alternative rounds that are spec'd 5.56mm NATO and AR platforms are capable of handling the higher pressure. The FN Scar is more than capable.

The result of Chris Kyle's recommendation to use a heavier bullet with a minimum velocity requirement, has seen an increase in effectiveness that has changed the US Military's mindset away from alternative calibers like the 6.8 SPC and others. One of the original concepts in adopting the 5.56mm NATO round to supersede the 7.62 x 51mm was that tumbling bullets causing greater wound potential. Unfortunately, the standard weight 5.56mm rounds at 55 and 62 grs. rarely accomplished that feat. Tumbling bullets are the result of the length of the bullet in relation to its diameter. It just took Chris Kyle to prove it with some help from Black Hills Ammo.

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but what advantage could a bullpup possibly have over a short-barrel AR/M4, or pistol with a shoulder brace? It certainly isn't price!

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but what advantage could a bullpup possibly have over a short-barrel AR/M4, or pistol with a shoulder brace? It certainly isn't price!

Purely my understanding, but I think that a bullpup has two generally desirable characteristics: one is handling, the other is the ability to maintain muzzle velocity over a SBR barrel, regardless of bullet weight. I think that we can agree that, IF these goals are achieved, that is generally desirable. Your point about what spec ops personnel choose to use is well taken. Not nearly that I’m that kind of warrior, but that’s why I’m perfectly comfortable with an SBR or a 16" carbine.

But, I think with the fact we're all (or mostly all) civilians, other factors might come into play. Some have mentioned being able to more easily exit a vehicle because of the bullpup's short length. Or, for people of smaller stature or fairer gender, maybe having the weight of the gun held in closer to the body, giving them greater control over handling and with less fatigue, are both traits that might be called desirable for civilians in a way that maybe don’t matter as much to front line infantry or spec ops troops. Some of that can be solved by having a weapon with a folding stock, but that’s rare in the AR world, and costs a LOT of money in the SCAR world....assuming you want a .223/5.56 weapon.

My wife has an AR Carbine, and she doesn’t find it hard to shoot from the bench, but she does find it tiring to tote around. She’s beyond the 30th anniversary of her 30th birthday now, so she’s not going to go out and get all ripped at a CrossFit gym. A gun that doesn’t weigh much more than her AR, but that keeps its weight closer in to the body might be a way to at least partially solve some problems for her. Given that VERY few civilians are going to be involved in an exchange of fire beyond 100 yards, whether or not a TVOR or BDR is good for much better than 2-3 MOA is pretty much a non factor.

I guess my point is that, while I don’t think bullpups are absolutely necessary, I do think that they are justifiable if someone wants to lay down the price for one. In other words, it’s not an unreasonable purchase.

[K-Texas]

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but what advantage could a bullpup possibly have over a short-barrel AR/M4, or pistol with a shoulder brace? It certainly isn't price!

Overall compactness while still retaining a long barrel for velocity.

I'll agree with the first part, in theory, but in real world terms, what do the world's finest spec operators use in CQB? And without having face planted next to chamber.

As far as velocity advantage, that would depend on how short you go with an AR barrel and if there's any advantage in terminal ballistics.

[K-Texas]

I'll agree with the first part, in theory, but in real world terms, what do the world's finest spec operators use in CQB? And without having face planted next to chamber.

I don't care what they use.

As far as velocity advantage, that would depend on how short you go with an AR barrel and if there's any improvement in terminal ballistics.

Obviously - but you raised the point

but what advantage could a bullpup possibly have over a short-barrel AR/M4, or pistol with a shoulder brace

, so I answered it.

Just so we're clear, the question I raised regarding velocity was in regard to 75/77 gr. Open Tip Match bullets needing 2700 - 2750 FPS and a 1 in 8" twist or faster to effectively tumble and be accurate out to 300 yards. So what exactly did you answer? I mean it ain't like we can't compare velocity from a 16.5" barrel to slightly shorter barrels where there won't be any real advantage in terminal ballistics with FMJ ammo, anyway.

And as far compactness, that could come in handy for some indoors while it doesn't inhibit the best trained troops. Step outside the door and the accuracy thing becomes more relevant.

[K-Texas]

I'll agree with the first part, in theory, but in real world terms, what do the world's finest spec operators use in CQB? And without having face planted next to chamber.

I don't care what they use

Just an FYI, but no country has as many LE Agencies as the USA. A fairly high percentage of them have Special Weapons units. The first place they look to for guidance are our Spec-Ops units.

Didn't mean to enter the discussion as a "devil's advocate," but hopefully the OPs questions were answered. Based on his OP and follow up concerning worth and potential resale: for the price I checked earlier for the Tavor, you could buy 3 Ruger SRs and have money left for ammo. For those who haven't fired one, 1 MOA (5 shots) is not a problem with true 5.56mm NATO Ammo, particularly the 75/77 gr. Open-Tip Match variety.

For the price of a Tavor, there are really good ARs that will do 1 MOA, Or even 1/2 MOA for 10 rounds. If you want the load data, just start a thread for the details in the handloading section.

[K-Texas]

Delete

[K-Texas]

Just so we're clear, the question I raised regarding velocity was in regard to 75/77 gr. Open Tip Match bullets needing 2700 - 2750 FPS and a 1 in 8" twist or faster to effectively tumble and be accurate out to 300 yards. So what exactly did you answer?

No - just so WE are clear, I wasn't talking about whatever your favorite bullet is through whatever your favorite twist-rate is - all so that it favors a rifle YOU like.

Once again, in case you're a slow reader: you asked "what advantage could a bullpup possibly have over a short-barrel AR/M4, or pistol with a shoulder brace" - and I answered that. If you want to go off on a tangent or move the goalposts, that's your problem - you DO realize that carlson is NOT an SF operator operating out to 300+ yards? Why you feel that's relevant to his needs is beyond me.

Just an FYI, but no country has as many LE Agencies as the USA. A fairly high percentage of them have Special Weapons units. The first place they look to for guidance are our Spec-Ops units.

Yeah, I remember the fiasco that resulted when LE started using subsonic 147gr ammo in their 9mm pistols "because Navy SEALs use them" *hero worship* - and they failed to take into account the context in which the SEALs needed that round (accuracy and suppression through an MP5, NOT expansion) - and suddenly the LE boys were having massive failures-to-stop because of no expansion. Gee, who'da thunk? THAT is why I don't care what spec-ops use.

It seems that, according to you, we should all just ditch every single weapon we have and just use YOUR favorite M4 in YOUR favorite bullet-type, weight, barrel-length and twist-rate because obviously everything else is all bloody useless (apparently because SF doesn't use them). Is that right? Yeah, I sure need that awesome 1 MOA match bullet indoors...

And as far compactness, that could come in handy for some indoors while it doesn't inhibit the best trained troops. Step outside the door and the accuracy thing becomes more relevant.

Gee, really? You don't say... *eyeroll* Kicked in many doors, have you? You're just a waste of my time.

Okay, insult me by suggesting I'm a slow reader, OR BEING A WASTE OF YOUR TIME. At no point did you see me answer a question with, "I don't care what they use." Civilains most often make choices based on what LE uses, which we know from the obsession people have in following the FBIs lead for their carry ammo.

I'm speaking facts as they relate to elite military and LE units where you might want to check on how many of them use bullpups? In operations by any of these types of units where CQB is on the menu, the entry teams are far more likely to be using sub-guns like the HK MP5 for the house clearing. But this certainly brings up another point; that being in any of those cases the weapons will have full-auto capability. Do I really need to offer an explanation for why they would use a 9mm sub-gun?

So far, no one in this thread whom owns a Tavor has endorsed their accuracy. Since they're semi-auto, would you choose one? For me, Inaccurate + Expensive = no thanks. And I don't think many of us, with you being the exception, would ignore what professionals use extensively. To simply say that a bullpup has an advantage because of compactness tends to ignore its disadvantages while you are obviously basing your opinions on civilian use. Maybe you had actual experience with them in Kimbosaland or wherever. I understand that there was once a good exchage of military hardware with the Israelis, so maybe you've actually fired one.

As far as my personal choice, I never had much interest in ARs until the loads Chris Kyle developed for SOCOM. Since we live in the real world where we're confined to semi-auto weapons, nuff said. As far as hero-worship, I tend to reserve that for Christ and heros of the Bible. But I doubt that any Texan doesn't have an appreciation in knowing that a Texan is considered the most lethal sniper in history, and if you know his story, you know that he climbed down from the rooftops to help Marines that did not have adequate CQB training, in leading their house clearing teams. What can I say? Chris Kyle was born the same year that I entered the US Navy and he used his AR PDW when he dropped down to lend a hand.

Your opinions concerning subsonic 147 gr. JHPs in 9 x 19mm is more than seriously flawed; it's totally inaccurate. The FBI took their lead from Dr. Martin Fackler insisting that a 147 gr. subsonic JHP would have penetrated Maddox's heart, ending the fight at Miami in 1986, where the 115 gr. SilverTip did not get there by a very few millimeters, even though it provided plenty enough permanent stretch cavity for rapid blood loss as his minions continue to push. The reason our special operations units were using 9mm 147 gr. Subsonic ammo, FMJ ,BTW, was because it was the heaviest weight in the caliber whereby being subsonic allowed sound suppression to be adequate. then we know they all got an upgrade via the HK Mk 23 in .45 ACP.

So, in being a waste of your time while you continue to read what I post, while I chose to give the alternate view while one was not being offered when the OP stated one might be useful, well, I guess one would have to ask . . . why?

By all means, return to your bullet casting that appears to be the limit of your capabilities. Maybe ventilate your lead casting area a bit better!

[Charles L. Cotton]

Just so we're clear, the question I raised regarding velocity was in regard to 75/77 gr. Open Tip Match bullets needing 2700 - 2750 FPS and a 1 in 8" twist or faster to effectively tumble and be accurate out to 300 yards. So what exactly did you answer?

No - just so WE are clear, I wasn't talking about whatever your favorite bullet is through whatever your favorite twist-rate is - all so that it favors a rifle YOU like.

Once again, in case you're a slow reader: you asked "what advantage could a bullpup possibly have over a short-barrel AR/M4, or pistol with a shoulder brace" - and I answered that. If you want to go off on a tangent or move the goalposts, that's your problem - you DO realize that carlson is NOT an SF operator operating out to 300+ yards? Why you feel that's relevant to his needs is beyond me.

Just an FYI, but no country has as many LE Agencies as the USA. A fairly high percentage of them have Special Weapons units. The first place they look to for guidance are our Spec-Ops units.

Yeah, I remember the fiasco that resulted when LE started using subsonic 147gr ammo in their 9mm pistols "because Navy SEALs use them" *hero worship* - and they failed to take into account the context in which the SEALs needed that round (accuracy and suppression through an MP5, NOT expansion) - and suddenly the LE boys were having massive failures-to-stop because of no expansion. Gee, who'da thunk? THAT is why I don't care what spec-ops use.

It seems that, according to you, we should all just ditch every single weapon we have and just use YOUR favorite M4 in YOUR favorite bullet-type, weight, barrel-length and twist-rate because obviously everything else is all bloody useless (apparently because SF doesn't use them). Is that right? Yeah, I sure need that awesome 1 MOA match bullet indoors...

And as far compactness, that could come in handy for some indoors while it doesn't inhibit the best trained troops. Step outside the door and the accuracy thing becomes more relevant.

Gee, really? You don't say... *eyeroll* Kicked in many doors, have you? You're just a waste of my time.

Okay, insult me by suggesting I'm a slow reader, OR BEING A WASTE OF YOUR TIME. At no point did you see me answer a question with, "I don't care what they use." Civilains most often make choices based on what LE uses, which we know from the obsession people have in following the FBIs lead for their carry ammo.

I'm speaking facts as they relate to elite military and LE units where you might want to check on how many of them use bullpups? In operations by any of these types of units where CQB is on the menu, the entry teams are far more likely to be using sub-guns like the HK MP5 for the house clearing. But this certainly brings up another point; that being in any of those cases the weapons will have full-auto capability. Do I really need to offer an explanation for why they would use a 9mm sub-gun?

So far, no one in this thread whom owns a Tavor has endorsed their accuracy. Since they're semi-auto, would you choose one? For me, Inaccurate + Expensive = no thanks. And I don't think many of us, with you being the exception, would ignore what professionals use extensively. To simply say that a bullpup has an advantage because of compactness tends to ignore its disadvantages while you are obviously basing your opinions on civilian use. Maybe you had actual experience with them in Kimbosaland or wherever. I understand that there was once a good exchage of military hardware with the Israelis, so maybe you've actually fired one.

As far as my personal choice, I never had much interest in ARs until the loads Chris Kyle developed for SOCOM. Since we live in the real world where we're confined to semi-auto weapons, nuff said. As far as hero-worship, I tend to reserve that for Christ and heros of the Bible. But I doubt that any Texan doesn't have an appreciation in knowing that a Texan is considered the most lethal sniper in history, and if you know his story, you know that he climbed down from the rooftops to help Marines that did not have adequate CQB training, in leading their house clearing teams. What can I say? Chris Kyle was born the same year that I entered the US Navy and he used his AR PDW when he dropped down to lend a hand.

Your opinions concerning subsonic 147 gr. JHPs in 9 x 19mm is more than seriously flawed; it's totally inaccurate. The FBI took their lead from Dr. Martin Fackler insisting that a 147 gr. subsonic JHP would have penetrated Maddox's heart, ending the fight at Miami in 1986, where the 115 gr. SilverTip did not get there by a very few millimeters, even though it provided plenty enough permanent stretch cavity for rapid blood loss as his minions continue to push. The reason our special operations units were using 9mm 147 gr. Subsonic ammo, FMJ ,BTW, was because it was the heaviest weight in the caliber whereby being subsonic allowed sound suppression to be adequate. then we know they all got an upgrade via the HK Mk 23 in .45 ACP.

So, in being a waste of your time while you continue to read what I post, while I chose to give the alternate view while one was not being offered when the OP stated one might be useful, well, I guess one would have to ask . . . why?

By all means, return to your bullet casting that appears to be the limit of your capabilities. Maybe ventilate your lead casting area a bit better!

Stop now!

Chas.