Church Liability

Links to various government agengices, resources & statutes, and non-governmental CHL-related links

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AJSully421
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Re: Church Liability

#16

Post by AJSully421 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:00 pm

ScottDLS wrote:
rtschl wrote:
Steve Lebe wrote:Has anybody ever been charged, much less convicted, for carrying under their LTC while an unpaid volunteer for a neighborhood watch or church security group?
When I took my Lev III & IV security class for our church in 2010 we were told by our instructor that a church in Dallas was reported to DPS and ended up paying a fine for operating an illegal security company. I just tried to Google for it real quick but didn't find anything. However, DPS has an Opinion Summary on church security located here: https://www.dps.texas.gov/rsd/psb/Laws/psb_opin_sum.htm. A church or person could be at risk if someone got mad and reported the church or if an incident occurs that requires LEO investigation. If it is revealed that the person/church was providing unlicensed security services then be prepared.

I know that Charles tried to get a bill through to exempt churches but it didn't get out of committee if I remember correctly. The security industry is staunchly opposed to a church exemption. It's sad because most small and medium churches cannot afford to hire security (in house or contract) or off duty LEO's. Churches should be allowed to organize armed volunteers.
Are there any churches that have licensed as security companies with the State? Of course this would require lots of money and probably a lot of insurance...and easier just to hire off duty LEO or a licensed company.

I thought I read somewhere that the LDS church (Mormons) have a very well trained, organized, and licensed security force, but that may be in Utah where the laws are different.

I've always been kind of interested in taking a Level III/IV and PPO cert, but I know that you can't actually work as such unless employed by a licensed security company.
The big wigs in Salt Lake have licensed body guards with guns, radios... The whole 9 yards. This protection is not for the regular church buildings or Chapels... And on top of that, the well-protected LDS leaders have properly declared every church owned building in the state of Utah as "gun free" zones for us underlings with licenses per Utah law.

Here in Texas, the LDS churches do not post, and I can personally assure you that my building is not gun free on Sundays.

Back to the topic, it seems like any sort of organized and sanctioned activities involving security and firearms is a no-go. That needs to change. Unfortunately, the security lobby can give donations to state law makers while churches can't...
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." - Ronald Reagan, 1964

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rtschl
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Re: Church Liability

#17

Post by rtschl » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:05 pm

ScottDLS wrote:Are there any churches that have licensed as security companies with the State? Of course this would require lots of money and probably a lot of insurance...and easier just to hire off duty LEO or a licensed company.
Yes there are two kinds: Form a security company or operate under an LOA. An Letter of Authority allows a business (or church in this case) to do uniformed security. The limitations of this is that you cannot have Level IV (personal protection i.e. non uniform) and you are limited to church property only. You cannot provide security to a person or group from your church offsite. With Level IV you can provide personal protection for your pastor or other protectee when he goes off site like to a hosptial or visiting high crime areas.

My church has done all the above. We started out as employees of an established security company and then switched to a different one. We then did the LOA and now have our own company. We needed more freedom than working for an outside company would allow us. With the LOA you still have to have insurance but we wanted to have Lev IV and you cannot with an LOA.
Ron
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ScottDLS
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Re: Church Liability

#18

Post by ScottDLS » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:04 pm

rtschl wrote:
ScottDLS wrote:Are there any churches that have licensed as security companies with the State? Of course this would require lots of money and probably a lot of insurance...and easier just to hire off duty LEO or a licensed company.
Yes there are two kinds: Form a security company or operate under an LOA. An Letter of Authority allows a business (or church in this case) to do uniformed security. The limitations of this is that you cannot have Level IV (personal protection i.e. non uniform) and you are limited to church property only. You cannot provide security to a person or group from your church offsite. With Level IV you can provide personal protection for your pastor or other protectee when he goes off site like to a hosptial or visiting high crime areas.

My church has done all the above. We started out as employees of an established security company and then switched to a different one. We then did the LOA and now have our own company. We needed more freedom than working for an outside company would allow us. With the LOA you still have to have insurance but we wanted to have Lev IV and you cannot with an LOA.
Thanks. Good info. I figured some larger Churches may have done this.
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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ScottDLS
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Re: Church Liability

#19

Post by ScottDLS » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:10 pm

AJSully421 wrote: The big wigs in Salt Lake have licensed body guards with guns, radios... The whole 9 yards. This protection is not for the regular church buildings or Chapels... And on top of that, the well-protected LDS leaders have properly declared every church owned building in the state of Utah as "gun free" zones for us underlings with licenses per Utah law.

Here in Texas, the LDS churches do not post, and I can personally assure you that my building is not gun free on Sundays.

Back to the topic, it seems like any sort of organized and sanctioned activities involving security and firearms is a no-go. That needs to change. Unfortunately, the security lobby can give donations to state law makers while churches can't...
Thank you for the info. I wondered if the LDS churches in Texas posted. Good to hear they don't. I know the Catholic Churches in Ft Worth and Dallas Diocese do... :banghead:
4/13/1996 Completed CHL Class, 4/16/1996 Fingerprints, Affidavits, and Application Mailed, 10/4/1996 Received CHL, renewed 1998, 2002, 2006, 2011, 2016...). "ATF... Uhhh...heh...heh....Alcohol, tobacco, and GUNS!! Cool!!!!"

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Deltaboy
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Re: Church Liability

#20

Post by Deltaboy » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:17 am

We need the church exception passed! As a Minister I follow the example of Z.N. Morrel . :tiphat:
I 'm just an Ole Sinner saved by Grace and Smith & Wesson.

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troglodyte
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Re: Church Liability

#21

Post by troglodyte » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:56 am

Deltaboy wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:17 am
We need the church exception passed! As a Minister I follow the example of Z.N. Morrel . :tiphat:
We did. Effective Sept. 1, 2017.

Sec. 1702.333. PLACE OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP; CERTAIN
VOLUNTEERS. (a) In this section, "volunteer security services"
means services or activities that are:
(1) regulated under this chapter; and
(2) provided without compensation or remuneration.
(b) This chapter does not apply to a person who is providing
volunteer security services on the premises of a church, synagogue,
or other established place of religious worship.
(c) While providing volunteer security services under
Subsection (b), a person may not wear a uniform or badge that:
(1) contains the word "security"; or
(2) gives the person the appearance of being a peace
officer, personal protection officer, or security officer.
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Deltaboy
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Re: Church Liability

#22

Post by Deltaboy » Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:11 pm

Thanks
I 'm just an Ole Sinner saved by Grace and Smith & Wesson.


crazy2medic
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Re: Church Liability

#23

Post by crazy2medic » Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:40 pm

troglodyte wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:56 am
Deltaboy wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:17 am
We need the church exception passed! As a Minister I follow the example of Z.N. Morrel . :tiphat:
We did. Effective Sept. 1, 2017.

Sec. 1702.333. PLACE OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP; CERTAIN
VOLUNTEERS. (a) In this section, "volunteer security services"
means services or activities that are:
(1) regulated under this chapter; and
(2) provided without compensation or remuneration.
(b) This chapter does not apply to a person who is providing
volunteer security services on the premises of a church, synagogue,
or other established place of religious worship.
(c) While providing volunteer security services under
Subsection (b), a person may not wear a uniform or badge that:
(1) contains the word "security"; or
(2) gives the person the appearance of being a peace
officer, personal protection officer, or security officer.
I have been doing this since Nov. of last year, simply sit at the back of the church and watch the door, I meet with the preacher 30min before services to see if their are any issues in regard to possible threats, small church that would never be able to afford a service.
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention

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