BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

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The Annoyed Man
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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#16

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:02 pm

jason812 wrote:If this goes through, what is the government prepared to do when nobody turns their bump stocks in to be destroyed?

How can they be dumb enough to claim "Prevents criminal usage of bump-stock-type devices?" I would like to find out how many illegally converted firearms are confiscated or recovered during a crime each year. I'm talking full semi converted not a bump stock. If the number is more than zero, than the machine gun ban didn't prevent criminal usage did it?

Also, if the ATF already acknowledges that a person can use a rubber band, stick, or a belt loop and their finger to do the same thing, what does this really accomplish?
It “sends a message” ....... “for the children”. :roll:

What a lot of people don’t realize is that there ARE automatic weapons that aren’t on the registry. I know of two different people back in California when I lived there, who own unregistered fully-automatic .45 ACP submachine guns - one a M1921 Thompson, and the other a M3 “grease gun”. They were both WW2 “take-homes” that were brought back from the war, illegally, and simply kept secret among family members. The guns were never registered, and as far as the gov’t is concerned, they don’t exist, and were probably listed as combat losses.

There isn’t an existing registry of bump stock owners, and even if the gov’t was able to track down every single credit card transaction which paid for one, there would be no way to account for the ones that were purchased with cash (another reason the gov’t doesn’t want you to have cash). There is also no way for the gov’t to definitively track down the ones paid for by credit card.
  • ”Sir, our investigation to account for all bump stocks sold revealed that you bought one from [insert dealer here] and paid for it with your ATM Visa card. We also show that after ATF mandated the destruction or turn-in of all bump fire stocks, you did not turn yours in. Can you please explain that?”

    “Absolutely! I sold it at a gun show about 6 or 8 months before the Las Vegas shooting. I didn’t like it, so I got rid of it. I’m sure glad now that I did.”

    “Sir, can you tell us anything about the person you sold it to?”

    “Not really. I don’t mean to be uncooperative, but you know, at the time it just wasn’t that big of a deal. It was legal to buy, own, and sell one at the time, so I just didn’t think that much of it. I went to the gun show intending to sell it, overheard a guy say that he hoped to find one for sale at the show, and I piped up and said I had one right there in my backpack for sale. I let it go for $100 or so in cash if I recall correctly, which I probably spent on beer and peanuts or something not long after. Like I said, it was all legal at the time. Heck, I didn’t even bother with a bill of sale, since it wasn’t a gun.......just an accessory part for a gun. I couldn’t even give you a name because I never asked, and he never volunteered it. I put my AR up in the safe for a while until I could get around to buying another buttstock for it....which took a while....but I didn’t miss it because I own four of them, and the other two had regular stocks on them, so I shot them until I got around to replacing that bump stock. In hindsight, maybe I should have done a bill of sale and I could have spared you guys a bit of trouble, but like I said, it just wasn’t a big deal at the time. Boy howdy, highlight really is 20/20, isn’t it?”
My guess is that a LOT of them will end up buried somewhere against the day that the flag goes up. Or not. I personally believe that the average rifleman can be a lot more effective with semiauto fire in most situations.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#17

Post by Misfit Child » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:21 pm

jason812 wrote:If this goes through, what is the government prepared to do when nobody turns their bump stocks in to be destroyed?
The same thing they did if you had an Akins Accelerator and didn't remove the spring or get rid of it. The same thing they do if you cut a rifle barrel to 14" or make a lightning link from an old license plate.


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#18

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:29 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
jason812 wrote:If this goes through, what is the government prepared to do when nobody turns their bump stocks in to be destroyed?

How can they be dumb enough to claim "Prevents criminal usage of bump-stock-type devices?" I would like to find out how many illegally converted firearms are confiscated or recovered during a crime each year. I'm talking full semi converted not a bump stock. If the number is more than zero, than the machine gun ban didn't prevent criminal usage did it?

Also, if the ATF already acknowledges that a person can use a rubber band, stick, or a belt loop and their finger to do the same thing, what does this really accomplish?
It “sends a message” ....... “for the children”. :roll:

What a lot of people don’t realize is that there ARE automatic weapons that aren’t on the registry. I know of two different people back in California when I lived there, who own unregistered fully-automatic .45 ACP submachine guns - one a M1921 Thompson, and the other a M3 “grease gun”. They were both WW2 “take-homes” that were brought back from the war, illegally, and simply kept secret among family members. The guns were never registered, and as far as the gov’t is concerned, they don’t exist, and were probably listed as combat losses.

There isn’t an existing registry of bump stock owners, and even if the gov’t was able to track down every single credit card transaction which paid for one, there would be no way to account for the ones that were purchased with cash (another reason the gov’t doesn’t want you to have cash). There is also no way for the gov’t to definitively track down the ones paid for by credit card.
  • ”Sir, our investigation to account for all bump stocks sold revealed that you bought one from [insert dealer here] and paid for it with your ATM Visa card. We also show that after ATF mandated the destruction or turn-in of all bump fire stocks, you did not turn yours in. Can you please explain that?”

    “Absolutely! I sold it at a gun show about 6 or 8 months before the Las Vegas shooting. I didn’t like it, so I got rid of it. I’m sure glad now that I did.”

    “Sir, can you tell us anything about the person you sold it to?”

    “Not really. I don’t mean to be uncooperative, but you know, at the time it just wasn’t that big of a deal. It was legal to buy, own, and sell one at the time, so I just didn’t think that much of it. I went to the gun show intending to sell it, overheard a guy say that he hoped to find one for sale at the show, and I piped up and said I had one right there in my backpack for sale. I let it go for $100 or so in cash if I recall correctly, which I probably spent on beer and peanuts or something not long after. Like I said, it was all legal at the time. Heck, I didn’t even bother with a bill of sale, since it wasn’t a gun.......just an accessory part for a gun. I couldn’t even give you a name because I never asked, and he never volunteered it. I put my AR up in the safe for a while until I could get around to buying another buttstock for it....which took a while....but I didn’t miss it because I own four of them, and the other two had regular stocks on them, so I shot them until I got around to replacing that bump stock. In hindsight, maybe I should have done a bill of sale and I could have spared you guys a bit of trouble, but like I said, it just wasn’t a big deal at the time. Boy howdy, highlight really is 20/20, isn’t it?”
My guess is that a LOT of them will end up buried somewhere against the day that the flag goes up. Or not. I personally believe that the average rifleman can be a lot more effective with semiauto fire in most situations.
Or more directly, "do you have a warrant? Well then get the heck off my property! Maybe you missed the circle slash FBI sign on my window but you are now guilty of trespass per past Texas AG opinions. Stand right there on the sidewalk while I call the sheriff to come arrest y'all."

If it comes to it, I'm sure Texas can just become a sanctuary state and refuse to cooperate with the feds on enforcement of any gun laws we disagree with.
Ding dong, the witch is dead


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#19

Post by Misfit Child » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:36 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote:If it comes to it, I'm sure Texas can just become a sanctuary state and refuse to cooperate with the feds on enforcement of any gun laws we disagree with.
Is that the same Texas Legislature that didn't pass either HB 560 or HB 1911 last year?


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#20

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:39 pm

Misfit Child wrote:
Soccerdad1995 wrote:If it comes to it, I'm sure Texas can just become a sanctuary state and refuse to cooperate with the feds on enforcement of any gun laws we disagree with.
Is that the same Texas Legislature that didn't pass either HB 560 or HB 1911 last year?
Yeah. They may not be quite as spirited as Kalifornia is with protecting illegals......
Ding dong, the witch is dead

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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#21

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:48 pm

Misfit Child wrote:
jason812 wrote:If this goes through, what is the government prepared to do when nobody turns their bump stocks in to be destroyed?
The same thing they did if you had an Akins Accelerator and didn't remove the spring or get rid of it. The same thing they do if you cut a rifle barrel to 14" or make a lightning link from an old license plate.
I learn something new every day. I had never heard of an Akins Accelerator until just a few minutes ago. I looked him up and found this story from 2008: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/mr-bil ... celerator/. Am I correct in understanding that it functioned in basically the same way as a bump fire stock, by using recoil and recovery to operate the trigger against a stationary finger?

Now to learn what a “lightning link” is. :mrgreen:
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#22

Post by jason812 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:37 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Misfit Child wrote:
jason812 wrote:If this goes through, what is the government prepared to do when nobody turns their bump stocks in to be destroyed?
The same thing they did if you had an Akins Accelerator and didn't remove the spring or get rid of it. The same thing they do if you cut a rifle barrel to 14" or make a lightning link from an old license plate.
I learn something new every day. I had never heard of an Akins Accelerator until just a few minutes ago. I looked him up and found this story from 2008: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/mr-bil ... celerator/. Am I correct in understanding that it functioned in basically the same way as a bump fire stock, by using recoil and recovery to operate the trigger against a stationary finger?

Now to learn what a “lightning link” is. :mrgreen:
Lightning link can be made from a piece of sheet metal. It drops over the sear and you only get full auto or safe. No semi. Easy to put in and take out. For research purposes only, :biggrinjester: there are plans on the net.


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#23

Post by jason812 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:44 pm

Misfit Child wrote:
jason812 wrote:If this goes through, what is the government prepared to do when nobody turns their bump stocks in to be destroyed?
The same thing they did if you had an Akins Accelerator and didn't remove the spring or get rid of it. The same thing they do if you cut a rifle barrel to 14" or make a lightning link from an old license plate.
One of those you could buy, the others make with no paper trail. So what did the government do if you legally purchased an Akins Accelerator and didn't turn it in? I didn't ask what happens if you get caught with an illegal mod. What will they do when you don't turn in your bump stock?

Don't take that like I'm angry. I know it can come across that way just from text.

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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#24

Post by carlson1 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:03 am

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/10-yea ... ump-stock/
If you currently own a reciprocating stock you will soon be in possession of a machine gun. Unlawful possession of a machine gun is a crime punishable by up to 10 years in prison, according to the DOJ.

Even for those of you who said, over and over: Who cares about bump stocks! They break if not the letter of the law than certainly the spirit of the law. They should be banned! Even you should take offense to this NPRM.

At the very least there should be a grandfather clause for bump stock owners. You have to acknowledge that. Because criminalizing the possession of lawfully purchased firearms and accessories is infringement. It is unconstitutional. Period.
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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#25

Post by MechAg94 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:34 am

jason812 wrote:
Misfit Child wrote:
jason812 wrote:If this goes through, what is the government prepared to do when nobody turns their bump stocks in to be destroyed?
The same thing they did if you had an Akins Accelerator and didn't remove the spring or get rid of it. The same thing they do if you cut a rifle barrel to 14" or make a lightning link from an old license plate.
One of those you could buy, the others make with no paper trail. So what did the government do if you legally purchased an Akins Accelerator and didn't turn it in? I didn't ask what happens if you get caught with an illegal mod. What will they do when you don't turn in your bump stock?

Don't take that like I'm angry. I know it can come across that way just from text.
They won't do anything. I am sure lots of people paid cash for their slide fire stocks so there is no record. It is just illegal to possess. If for some reason you are ever arrested with it or an LEO or federal officer sees it, you could be in for a difficult time with the feds. Sucks but short of a court victory or better politicians, I doubt it will change.


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#26

Post by TreyHouston » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:21 am

If anyone is looking for one in the Houston area, I might know of someone who as one NEW in package, for cash or trade! SSAR-15 MOD Right handed. Send me a PM (new account is OK).

...not sure what happened to the one I used, I think I lost it during Harvey...
"Jump in there sport, get it done and we'll all sing your praises." -Chas

How many times a day could you say this? :cheers2:


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#27

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:03 am

I bought a few, but they are long gone now. No longer in my possession, and I probably wouldn't buy another one even if I could. So I really don't have a personal interest at stake here. My interest is with the government's plan to confiscate half a million guns that were legally purchased and owned. The British tried that with the colonists. It didn't turn out well. Heck the Mexican's only tried to take back the cannon they had loaned to the Texian settlers. That didn't turn out well either. Let's all pray there is less bloodshed this time around.
Ding dong, the witch is dead


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#28

Post by BBYC » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:59 am

MechAg94 wrote:
jason812 wrote:
Misfit Child wrote:
jason812 wrote:If this goes through, what is the government prepared to do when nobody turns their bump stocks in to be destroyed?
The same thing they did if you had an Akins Accelerator and didn't remove the spring or get rid of it. The same thing they do if you cut a rifle barrel to 14" or make a lightning link from an old license plate.
One of those you could buy, the others make with no paper trail. So what did the government do if you legally purchased an Akins Accelerator and didn't turn it in? I didn't ask what happens if you get caught with an illegal mod. What will they do when you don't turn in your bump stock?

Don't take that like I'm angry. I know it can come across that way just from text.
They won't do anything. I am sure lots of people paid cash for their slide fire stocks so there is no record. It is just illegal to possess. If for some reason you are ever arrested with it or an LEO or federal officer sees it, you could be in for a difficult time with the feds. Sucks but short of a court victory or better politicians, I doubt it will change.
:iagree:
The BATF won't go door to door. They don't have the guts for that unless they have lots of backup like at Mount Carmel. No sir.

They will just make it illegal and let others do their dirty work. Use it at a public range and someone will snitch. Use it or bump fire au natural on your own property and some anti gun neighbor will snitch. Get stopped by Olmos Park PD for speeding with one in your SUV and they'll arrest you and charge you with having a machine gun, and if the DA days it's legal under Texas law they'll call the US Attorney office about your machine gun.
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Courage to change the things I can
And the firepower to make a difference.

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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#29

Post by deplorable » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:52 pm

At the very least there should be a grandfather clause for bump stock owners. You have to acknowledge that. Because criminalizing the possession of lawfully purchased firearms and accessories is infringement. It is unconstitutional. Period.
You're correct it's an unconstitutional infringement, the same as every other NFA infringement. Including a grandfather clause in a bumpfire stock ban wouldn't change the constitutionality of the infringement in the slightest. Besides, the Hughes Amendment prohibits taxpayers from adding new machineguns to the registry, so a grandfather clause isn't legal.


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Re: BATFE: Bump-Stock-Type Devices: Notice of proposed rulemaking

#30

Post by bblhd672 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:00 am

James Wesley, Rawles' 42 point smackdown of the proposed lawmaking by ATF:

https://survivalblog.com/slippery-slope ... achinegun/

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