IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

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IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#1

Post by DanD » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:13 pm

The IDPA 2017 rulebook adds a Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC), which will be pistol caliber rifles. Here is a link to the IDPA 2017 rulebook: http://www.idpa.com/misc/Rulebook%202017.pdf

I don't know how I feel about the new rifle division in the pistol sport.

This topic is also being discussed here: http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/12428/2 ... -HQ?page=1

Thoughts?
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

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Post by C-dub » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:26 pm

DanD wrote: I don't know how I feel about the new rifle division in the pistol sport.
Since my club dropped its IDPA membership status and I let my IDPA membership it doesn't bother me as much, but it doesn't seem right, does it? A carbine is not a pistol. It makes me wonder what has happened to IDPA membership in the last couple years since they've changed the rules up a little. I think it was rule changes in 2014 that lead to my club dropping our membership in IDPA in 2015. This could be a way that IDPA is looking to increase membership and increase its popularity with new shooters.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#3

Post by Lena » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:38 pm

We dropped our club membership also due the some of the stupid rules personal membership also dropped too. I do remember when I shot 2-3 matches a week for along time.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#4

Post by DanD » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:13 pm

I have spent a day thinking about the Pistol Caliber Carbine (PCC) Division and after the shock has worn off about carbine rifles in IDPA, I think I'm okay with it and here is why:

1) The carbine rifles will be in their own division so their score won't impact me.

2) Although IDPA is a sport, I really like the defensive pistol aspect of it. For the past 18 months I have competed exclusively with my EDC subcompact pistol and now I shoot significantly better with the small pistol. I now see the PCC Division as an opportunity for me to greatly improve my defensive carbine rifle skills without having to seek out a rifle competition. I could shoot 3 Gun or the carbine rifle equivalent that USPSA seems to be doing, but I like how the IDPA stages are setup. So count me in favor of PCC.

I have been reading on other forums where lots of folks are upset with a carbine rifle division being added to IPDA. When I first learned about the PCC division I did not know what to think about this big change to the rules, but I took some time to think about it and I now see it as an opportunity for me to improve my rifle skills in a defensive situation.

I will have to wait and see how the PSC Shooting Club will roll out the PCC Division. The IDPA 2017 rulebook seems to have some rules that are not consistent with PCC including items like starting facing up range and is a cover garment required for PCC?

[Edited to fix a typo.]
Last edited by DanD on Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#5

Post by DanD » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:17 pm

C-dub and Lena,

The IDPA rules changing every 2 years is frustrating and I know folks at my club have not been very happy about it. I have been shooting BUG for the past 18 months and come January 1, 2017 by subcompact pistol will no longer be legal in that division. I simply can't afford to keep buying pistols to stay IDPA legal, although that may be a good excuse to get one anyway.

What did your clubs replace IDPA with?
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#6

Post by ELB » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:16 pm

2) Although IDPA is a sport, I really like the defensive pistol aspect of it.
This is interesting. I joined IDPA when it was brand spanking new in the early 1990s, when I was in California and taking my first serious pistol lessons from Mike Dalton. I don't remember if he was one of the actual founders or just an enthusiastic early proponent, but he was really pushing it. My recollection is that he and others felt IPSC and the other sports at the time were just that, and too much that; "that" being sports. Race guns and competition holsters, gamesmanship, competition tactics that won matches but were suicide for the street...and rules that changed every year.

So IDPA was to be different. Real defensive guns, use of cover, draw from concealment, defensive tactics to be rewarded over game tactics, (Is "failure to do right" still on the books?). The rules were supposed to promote defensive/street shooting craftsman ship over scoring points to win...

Oh, and stable rules. Only change them....every two years.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#7

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:38 pm

The Board at PSC approved the use of pistol caliber carbines in the pistol bay, but only for matches. This was done for USPSA, but we'll be doing it in IDPA as well.

The new rule does not have Classifications for PCC, so everyone will be competing against each other. Apparently, the plan is to have Classification in 2018. I'm guessing that the Classifier for PCC will be something different than for pistols.

I'm looking forward to shooting PCC. A lot of people have rifles for home defense and some have them in their cars. Mark does a great job with the scenarios, so they will be good practice for carbines at typical pistol distances. Guys shooting iron sights are going to get a good lesson about the physical offset between bore and front sight on AR-15s. A lot of non-threats are going to be hit until people learn. :biggrinjester:

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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#8

Post by DanD » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:59 pm

Hi Chas,

I'm a PSC member and it's great PSC is going to support the PCC division. I see this as an opportunity for me to improve my carbine skills in defensive situations.

About a 6 months ago I picked up a Kel Tec Sub 2000 Gen 2 in 9mm for a home defense carbine. It shoots really well when the front sight does not rotate. I still need to send it back to Kel Tec to get the updated front sight that fixes the issue.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#9

Post by DanD » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:19 pm

Hi Skiprr,

I have been competing in IDPA for 3 years now and I hear a lot of the same dissatisfaction with IDPA from other competitors.

From what I understand about the 2017 IDPA rulebook, the SO's will retake the exam when their current certification expires and not when the new rulebook goes into affect. The way IDPA handled retesting all the SO's for the last rulebook change did not go over well with a lot of the SO's I know.

It seems like the carbine division came out of no where. I had not heard anybody mention it on any of the forums I have been reading. However, I'm going to take advantage of that division to get better with my rifle in defensive scenarios.

I think IDPA management added the carbine division to keep up with USPSA and 3 Gun competitions and attract new shooters.

Even with all the rule changes I don't like I will still look forward to shooting IDPA at PSC because of all the great people I meet plus I get to shoot defensive scenarios.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#10

Post by C-dub » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:28 pm

DanD wrote:C-dub and Lena,

The IDPA rules changing every 2 years is frustrating and I know folks at my club have not been very happy about it. I have been shooting BUG for the past 18 months and come January 1, 2017 by subcompact pistol will no longer be legal in that division. I simply can't afford to keep buying pistols to stay IDPA legal, although that may be a good excuse to get one anyway.

What did your clubs replace IDPA with?
No other affiliation. We have some very dedicated folks that get stages from the internet and make some up on their own. We just call them Defensive Pistol Matches. And sometimes, after the match we let some folks run through one or two stages with rifles/carbines in pistol or rifle calibers. We still follow all safety rules, but have relaxed some of the more ridiculous things like limiting magazine loads and not being able to drop a mag with rounds still in it or when a reload can be done. It's a bit more real world.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#11

Post by Bitter Clinger » Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:35 am

C-dub wrote:
DanD wrote:C-dub and Lena,

The IDPA rules changing every 2 years is frustrating and I know folks at my club have not been very happy about it. I have been shooting BUG for the past 18 months and come January 1, 2017 by subcompact pistol will no longer be legal in that division. I simply can't afford to keep buying pistols to stay IDPA legal, although that may be a good excuse to get one anyway.

What did your clubs replace IDPA with?
No other affiliation. We have some very dedicated folks that get stages from the internet and make some up on their own. We just call them Defensive Pistol Matches. And sometimes, after the match we let some folks run through one or two stages with rifles/carbines in pistol or rifle calibers. We still follow all safety rules, but have relaxed some of the more ridiculous things like limiting magazine loads and not being able to drop a mag with rounds still in it or when a reload can be done. It's a bit more real world.
Besides Dallas Pistol Club, where else in the DFW area do you go to shoot matches? Am interested in learning more, thanks!
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#12

Post by C-dub » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:49 am

Bitter Clinger wrote:
C-dub wrote:
DanD wrote:C-dub and Lena,

The IDPA rules changing every 2 years is frustrating and I know folks at my club have not been very happy about it. I have been shooting BUG for the past 18 months and come January 1, 2017 by subcompact pistol will no longer be legal in that division. I simply can't afford to keep buying pistols to stay IDPA legal, although that may be a good excuse to get one anyway.

What did your clubs replace IDPA with?
No other affiliation. We have some very dedicated folks that get stages from the internet and make some up on their own. We just call them Defensive Pistol Matches. And sometimes, after the match we let some folks run through one or two stages with rifles/carbines in pistol or rifle calibers. We still follow all safety rules, but have relaxed some of the more ridiculous things like limiting magazine loads and not being able to drop a mag with rounds still in it or when a reload can be done. It's a bit more real world.
Besides Dallas Pistol Club, where else in the DFW area do you go to shoot matches? Am interested in learning more, thanks!
The Terrell Rifle & Pistol Club. I've been a member there for about 3 or 4 years now and most of our matches are open to the public. Due to my work schedule the past 18 months, I haven't been able to shoot a handgun match in quite a while and only make the 5-stand match about 8 of those last 18 months and only about 3 handgun matches.
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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#13

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:31 am

I just renewed by IDPA dues last night. Like Skiprr, I did not renew my SO Certification a couple of years back. I'm not going to renew twice a week because someone wants to act like a governmental agency.

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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#14

Post by sheary » Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:58 pm

DanD wrote:The IDPA 2017 rulebook adds a Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC), which will be pistol caliber rifles.
They should have added a carbine caliber pistol division instead. AR pistols are becoming more popular and more mainstream. It might have helped their membership numbers.

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Re: IDPA 2017 rulebook adds Pistol Caliber Carbine Division (PCC) (i.e. rifles)

#15

Post by Rhino1 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:35 pm

I shoot with Texas Tactical. They shoot at Cedar Ridge in Bulverde and Austin Rifle Club in Manor. We hold two IDPA matches and one carbine match every month at both locations (alternating Sat and Sun). The carbine match is essentially an IDPA match but with a rifle. One thing I like is there is at least one stage that requires transition from rifle to pistol (sling helps this greatly).

I'd like to see HQ issue a good, side-by-side comparison of the rules changes. This would help both shooters and SO's. I thought the on-line SO exam with the last rule change was onerous. As I recall, there were 50 randomly generated questions out of possible 300. There was a time limit and 85% required to pass. With the "luck of the draw", I had a high number of esoteric questions requiring extensive thought on rule interpretation. Failed by one question. If you failed a second time, you were required to complete the entire SO certification class again. Didn't have any trouble the second time but got more realistic questions. I'd rather have 100 questions if they stay with the 85 requirement. I agree with Charles on the recertification. If next time is as difficult as last time, I'll let my SO certification lapse. I guess IDPA is loaded with plenty of certified, as opposed to local club trained, safety officers.
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