2009 needs to be a clarification year

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Russell
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2009 needs to be a clarification year

#1

Post by Russell » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:04 pm

All of the stuff we have been able to get passed in 2007 is great.

But..


There is enough gray areas, that we need to take this year to get bills passed to make them no longer gray. We spend way too much time hashing out the details and whether or not so-and-so is going to get me arrested, and not enough time actually enjoying the freedom we have in Texas.

My wish list for this is:

1. Add a section to PC 30.06 that clearly specifies that if a 30.06 sign does not meet all of the requirements listed (1 inch lettering, Spanish translation, EXACT wording specified), a CHL holder cannot be prosecuted or sued for carrying into the business in question. Seriously, with the amount of posts that say "But I don't want to be a test case", you would think the specifications for a 30.06 sign doesn't exist!

2. Add a section to 40.03/.035 (I don't remember which one has this, I don't have the laws in front of me) that specifies that the law regarding not carrying during an educational event that is off the grounds of the educational institution ONLY applies to the students and faculty of the educational institution that are actually taking part in the event in an official capacity, and no one else. This would allow for a teacher or student of the educational institution that may be at the park/zoo/whatever to be on the same grounds as the event and carry without fear of being prosecuted, even though they are not taking part in the event in an official role. This would also take away the gray area that exists with other CHL holders, IE, "I just saw a bunch of students on a field trip enter the zoo, can I carry?"

3. Add a law that flat out prohibits governmental offices and buildings from posting 30.06 signs, and add a new sign that only governmental buildings that have courts or offices utilized by the court must post to notify CHL holders that they cannot carry there. I know that technically governmental buildings that do not meet the court/offices utilized by the court cannot enforce a 30.06 sign, but there is still a gray area there where CHL holders do not want to be the "test case", and until they are prohibited from posting them, they will pray on the CHL holders that are fearful.


Honestly, all of the above really needs to be done. We really should focus more on clarification of our existing laws.


Thoughts?
Last edited by Russell on Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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anygunanywhere
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#2

Post by anygunanywhere » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:22 pm

Russell wrote:.


Thoughts?
Just allow anyone with a CHL to carry anywhere LEO can carry.

Gov. Perry has stated his support for this idea.

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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#3

Post by thankGod » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:31 pm

There does seem to be confusion in regards to what Russell mentioned, and of course there is the Post Office issue. Clarification would be nice.

However, I agree with anygun, who agrees with Perry. So, the motion is passed and carried! ;-)
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#4

Post by Russell » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:13 pm

Sorry, but I disagree. I do not think CHL holders should be able to carry anywhere LEO's can, do to the fact that that really would go against private property rights.

We need to start small, and clarifying the few things I mentioned up above would be leaps and bounds above what we have right now.
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#5

Post by anygunanywhere » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:16 pm

Russell wrote:Sorry, but I disagree. I do not think CHL holders should be able to carry anywhere LEO's can, do to the fact that that really would go against private property rights.

We need to start small, and clarifying the few things I mentioned up above would be leaps and bounds above what we have right now.
Then the law that allows LEO to carry anywhere needs to be changed.

There should be no differentiation between LEO and law abiding citizens. We are not the problem.

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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#6

Post by Purplehood » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:21 pm

Just allow anyone with a CHL to carry anywhere LEO can carry.
I agree 100%.
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#7

Post by KC5AV » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:28 pm

Purplehood wrote:
Just allow anyone with a CHL to carry anywhere LEO can carry.
I agree 100%.
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#8

Post by Russell » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:55 pm

It appears I'm the minority here on this one. Sounds fun :mrgreen:


The law that allows LEO's to practically carry anywhere does not need to be changed. It is their job to apprehend criminals and prevent crime, therefor they need to have the authority and ability to do that.

It is not a CHL holders job to be an LEO. If private property is posted, so be it. Report it (texas3006.com), try to change the owner's mind (Hand out no guns no money cards), and then go somewhere else and talk with your dollars.

But above all, and I mean ABOVE ALL, respect private property rights, and that includes allowing the owner to restrict who, and what, he does not want on his land.

We can fight our fight, but that fight should not entail taking away private property owner's rights.

It is not our right to be on their land with something they don't want on there. Go purchase your stuff somewhere else if their business is posted.

That is my stance. :)
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#9

Post by anygunanywhere » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:35 pm

Russell wrote:It appears I'm the minority here on this one. Sounds fun :mrgreen:


The law that allows LEO's to practically carry anywhere does not need to be changed. It is their job to apprehend criminals and prevent crime, therefor they need to have the authority and ability to do that.

It is not a CHL holders job to be an LEO. If private property is posted, so be it. Report it (texas3006.com), try to change the owner's mind (Hand out no guns no money cards), and then go somewhere else and talk with your dollars.

But above all, and I mean ABOVE ALL, respect private property rights, and that includes allowing the owner to restrict who, and what, he does not want on his land.

We can fight our fight, but that fight should not entail taking away private property owner's rights.

It is not our right to be on their land with something they don't want on there. Go purchase your stuff somewhere else if their business is posted.

That is my stance. :)
Okay, be that way. :mrgreen:

Government, any government, federal, state, county, municipality, taxing district, school district, ANY government that collects fees or taxes citizens or exercises authority over citizens does not have the authority under the constitution to ban law abiding citizen carry anywhere any federal, state, county, municipality, taxing district, school district, ANY government LEO are allowed to carry.

We grant the government their power and we can remove that power. The constitution says so. They do not grant us our rights.

This does not interfere with any so-called sacred private property rights, and I have stated my points on the property rights issue on other threads.

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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#10

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:50 pm

anygunanywhere wrote:Just allow anyone with a CHL to carry anywhere LEO can carry.

Gov. Perry has stated his support for this idea.

Anygunanywhere
I wrote the bill within 3 days of Governor Perry making that statement.

Chas.
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#11

Post by anygunanywhere » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:52 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:Just allow anyone with a CHL to carry anywhere LEO can carry.

Gov. Perry has stated his support for this idea.

Anygunanywhere
I wrote the bill within 3 days of Governor Perry making that statement.

Chas.
Thank you, Charles.

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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#12

Post by carlson1 » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:54 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
anygunanywhere wrote:Just allow anyone with a CHL to carry anywhere LEO can carry.

Gov. Perry has stated his support for this idea.

Anygunanywhere
I wrote the bill within 3 days of Governor Perry making that statement.

Chas.
I have agreed with this since day one. Mr. Cotton now the Bill is written push it through for us. :hurry:
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#13

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:55 pm

Russell wrote:It appears I'm the minority here on this one. Sounds fun :mrgreen:


The law that allows LEO's to practically carry anywhere does not need to be changed. It is their job to apprehend criminals and prevent crime, therefor they need to have the authority and ability to do that.

It is not a CHL holders job to be an LEO. If private property is posted, so be it. Report it (texas3006.com), try to change the owner's mind (Hand out no guns no money cards), and then go somewhere else and talk with your dollars.

But above all, and I mean ABOVE ALL, respect private property rights, and that includes allowing the owner to restrict who, and what, he does not want on his land.

We can fight our fight, but that fight should not entail taking away private property owner's rights.

It is not our right to be on their land with something they don't want on there. Go purchase your stuff somewhere else if their business is posted.

That is my stance. :)
Exempting CHLs from both TPC§§ 46.02 and 46.03 (as are LEOs, judges, probation officers, railroad COPS, and many more) will allow CHLs to carry in places that would otherwise be off-limits under TPC §46.03 and 46.035. This has nothing to do with removing a private citizen's ability to post their property with 30.06 signs.

Chas.
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#14

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:06 pm

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Russell wrote:It appears I'm the minority here on this one. Sounds fun :mrgreen:


The law that allows LEO's to practically carry anywhere does not need to be changed. It is their job to apprehend criminals and prevent crime, therefor they need to have the authority and ability to do that.

It is not a CHL holders job to be an LEO. If private property is posted, so be it. Report it (texas3006.com), try to change the owner's mind (Hand out no guns no money cards), and then go somewhere else and talk with your dollars.

But above all, and I mean ABOVE ALL, respect private property rights, and that includes allowing the owner to restrict who, and what, he does not want on his land.

We can fight our fight, but that fight should not entail taking away private property owner's rights.

It is not our right to be on their land with something they don't want on there. Go purchase your stuff somewhere else if their business is posted.

That is my stance. :)
Exempting CHLs from both TPC§§ 46.02 and 46.03 (as are LEOs, judges, probation officers, railroad COPS, and many more) will allow CHLs to carry in places that would otherwise be off-limits under TPC §46.03 and 46.035. This has nothing to do with removing a private citizen's ability to post their property with 30.06 signs.

Chas.
Here is the statutory language I should have included earlier. LEOs cannot be prosecuted for criminal trespass if the sole reason for excluding them was the possession of a firearm. This is true even if the LEO is off-duty. (I don't want to get into an argument about "I'm always on-duty. No you aren't. You're always a LEO, but you're not always "on duty.") Remember, TPC §30.06 does not apply to armed LEOs since they wouldn't be carrying pursuant to the authority of their CHL, even if they have one. So the only basis for a criminal trespass charge against a LEO would be TPC §30.05.

Chas.
TPC 30.05 wrote:(i) This section [criminal trespass] does not apply if:
  • (1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun or other weapon was forbidden; and
    (2) the actor at the time of the offense was a peace officer, including a commissioned peace officer of a recognized state, or a special investigator under Article 2.122, Code of Criminal Procedure, regardless of whether the peace officer or special investigator was engaged in the actual discharge of an official duty while carrying the weapon
.
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Russell
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Re: 2009 needs to be a clarification year

#15

Post by Russell » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:18 pm

That sounds like a great bill Charles, and I really hope it goes through.

I would be very excited :woohoo
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