When to defend?

[Abraham]

kopking10,

You posted: "Her idea was, if you have a gun, the robber sees you with a gun would most likely shoot you."

Please tell me if this is you or your wife's perspective: You're depending on the robber's kindness/reasonableness to do you no harm if you remain defenseless?

Do I have that right?

[VMI77]

I'm always intrigued when people declare their home a "gun free zone." Might I ask you a little about that?

1) You probably have a kitchen? Do you have knives? Specifically carving knives? Steak knives?

2) While in your kitchen, (and here I'm not going to be specific) you have certain household cleaning items under the sink? You probably have some liquids you cook with in your pantry?

3) Do you like to play softball? Own a bat?

4) Have a fireplace and a little rack of tools beside it to manipulate the fire?

5) Do you have a hammer and/or screwdriver and/or needle-nose pliers for fixing things?

6) Do you own a ballpoint pen?

7) I assume you own some form of vehicle?

I could go on for quite a while. If you have EVEN ONE of the items I listed above in your home, you have some of the most lethal weapons on earth in your daily life. You should correct that oversight immediately. On the other hand, you probably don't think of those items in terms of lethal weapons. You see, the real lethal weapon is the human that wields it, not the weapon itself.

Here's a tip: avoiding the threat is good and desirable as long as there is a place to retreat, AND you are the only one involved. When those two conditions are not met is when push comes to shove and you need a reliable, lethal response.

Not only that, but unless all those knives, tools, and bats are kept locked up, you have readily available weapons that an intruder may use against you.

[kopking10]

Thanks, that makes perfect sense. Even if you don't want to carry a handgun, it would be a good idea to take a CHL class from a good instructor. You will learn a lot about Texas law. Taking the CHL course doesn't mean you have to actually get the license. If you choose to get a CHL, it gives you an option to carry a handgun, not an obligation to do so. If you are ever in the Houston area when I'm doing my Texas Self-Defense & Deadly Force Laws Seminar you and your wife might find it helpful.

Chas.

We are in Houston. Is there any online information about your seminar? I spoke with one of the CHL instructor and he told me that I could take the qualifying test first and when we are more comfortable we could get the license within 2 years.

[kopking10]

So, my wife is walking home from the subway in the evening and we live near university housing where unfortunately crime occurs. Also, my ex gf made a stupid mistake once when she opened the gate to the front yard (raining and police impostor) and when she realized and ran inside the house to get a knife. A gun was pulled on her.

I'll ask a hard question here. You mentioned your wife taking a subway. You do know that we don't have subways in Texas, or most anywhere else in the West?

The members here have been telling you to get a CHL. That is a unique Texas nomenclature. Tell us where you live to begin with, just the state will do, so that we can intelligently direct you to the information you seek based upon your laws.

If you live in Texas, great because some of the people here have pretty much all the answers. Irregardless, welcome to the forum.

We are in Houston area we live near east side. Not the best area. We do have the light rail. Excuse me for using the general term.

[kopking10]

Misfiring in today's world is bogus if you have a quality weapon and quality ammo. I've shot for over 40 years and have never had a misfire under the conditions mentioned.

By misfire, I meant bullet chambered and triggered accidentally not mechanically. Again, we only frequent the range not the whole firearm terms.

[MONGOOSE]

I think with ya'lls mindset, you should just forget about guns for self defense. 2 years just another delaying excuse.
.

[kopking10]

Your story isnt making any sence. You go to a range twice a month for a year. But your house is a gun free Zone. You talk about Subways the last I have seen are not in Texas only the border towns. Then you go on talking about how your buddie had buddies that went back and shot him in his ranch. I may be a green horn but where are you going with this? Are you just looking for information only and or are you trying to decide if Purchasing a firearm is a good choice?

I have always wanted a gun for the family but a happy wife is a happy camper. The story about buddies getting shot were an experience told. It is very easy to buy a gun. Not immediately getting a gun before considering all the "potential" situation I think is reasonable. What I wanted to know is that instead of advantage of carrying a gun, would you really use it when require? and in what situation?

Me and my wife came out a list of questions regarding owning a firearm. I certainly have no intention to offend anyone with my questions.

[kopking10]

kopking10,

You posted: "Her idea was, if you have a gun, the robber sees you with a gun would most likely shoot you."

Please tell me if this is you or your wife's perspective: You're depending on the robber's kindness/reasonableness to do you no harm if you remain defenseless?

Do I have that right?

It's her opinion. And it make sense, No? If you read the Oregon shooting news, the shooter asked the students if they are Christian or not. If they are, he shoots. Relating to that, the shooter is looking for something that he could target. In this case, when he sees a gun, he will shoot.

I do agree that we couldn't hope of kindness from the shooter. Bear in mind, we were brought up not to deal with violence and that the world is perfect. Do you understand my point? I can't raise my kids telling them to worry about bad guys all the time. I just recalled the movie Iceman, where one of his victim prayed for God for mercy. The same with the other girl that hid in the closet and she was allowed to leave.

[kopking10]

I think with ya'lls mindset, you should just forget about guns for self defense. 2 years just another delaying excuse.
.

Unfortunately, that is why majority people prefer NOT to have firearms. Therefore, as one of those people, I came to this forum trying to learn more about your perspective owning a gun and CHL. I am certain many people have this uncertainty.

[Middle Age Russ]

Charles' class is excellent and I highly recommend it.

Regarding the use of firearms for defense, it seems that a big concern of yours is an unintentional discharge. Guns themselves are no more dangerous than a rock, but if they are handled by people who haven't conditioned themselves to always practice safety when handling guns, unintended consequences sometimes occur. Therefore practice safety at every opportunity. The safety rules, per the NRA (with addenda):

Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction (Never cover anything with the muzzle that you do not intend to destroy)
Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot (Keep your booger-hook off the bang switch until your sight are on the target)
Always keep the action open and empty until you are ready to shoot (Don't keep a gun loaded unless you are ready to use it)

And some additional rules/behaviors to keep in mind:
Be aware of your target and what is beyond it -- know the intended/likely stopping point of your bullets
Treat every gun as if it is loaded

Practicing proper muzzle discipline (not pointing a gun at things you don't want to destroy) and finger discipline (not putting your finger inside the trigger guard until you are pretty darn certain that you want to make that shot) can go a LONG way toward preventing unintended discharges. Practice, practice, practice.

[kopking10]

Charles' class is excellent and I highly recommend it.

Regarding the use of firearms for defense, it seems that a big concern of yours is an unintentional discharge. Guns themselves are no more dangerous than a rock, but if they are handled by people who haven't conditioned themselves to always practice safety when handling guns, unintended consequences sometimes occur. Therefore practice safety at every opportunity. The safety rules, per the NRA (with addenda):

Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction (Never cover anything with the muzzle that you do not intend to destroy)
Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot (Keep your booger-hook off the bang switch until your sight are on the target)
Always keep the action open and empty until you are ready to shoot (Don't keep a gun loaded unless you are ready to use it)

And some additional rules/behaviors to keep in mind:
Be aware of your target and what is beyond it -- know the intended/likely stopping point of your bullets
Treat every gun as if it is loaded

Practicing proper muzzle discipline (not pointing a gun at things you don't want to destroy) and finger discipline (not putting your finger inside the trigger guard until you are pretty darn certain that you want to make that shot) can go a LONG way toward preventing unintended discharges. Practice, practice, practice.

I can't agree more. Very well said. I certainly do hope that I will never need a gun. And if I do, never will I need to use it other than practicing.

[The Annoyed Man]

I was going to go for a CHL class 6 months back but didn't because we have the "no gun" policy. So, we got us ourselves a dog instead =)

I am a little confused.
Who made this "no gun" policy?
How do you shoot at the range for a year with this policy?

Both of us agreed to it. She think firearm attracts the devil so I said ok but let's keep going to the range for ad hoc basis. Her idea was, if you have a gun, the robber sees you with a gun would most likely shoot you.

Meaning no disrespect to your wife, but it sounds to me like she is extraordinarily ignorant about guns and matters of self-defense. Where on earth did she get these bizarre notions?

[MONGOOSE]

Charles' class is excellent and I highly recommend it.

Regarding the use of firearms for defense, it seems that a big concern of yours is an unintentional discharge. Guns themselves are no more dangerous than a rock, but if they are handled by people who haven't conditioned themselves to always practice safety when handling guns, unintended consequences sometimes occur. Therefore practice safety at every opportunity. The safety rules, per the NRA (with addenda):

Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction (Never cover anything with the muzzle that you do not intend to destroy)
Always keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot (Keep your booger-hook off the bang switch until your sight are on the target)
Always keep the action open and empty until you are ready to shoot (Don't keep a gun loaded unless you are ready to use it)

And some additional rules/behaviors to keep in mind:
Be aware of your target and what is beyond it -- know the intended/likely stopping point of your bullets
Treat every gun as if it is loaded

Practicing proper muzzle discipline (not pointing a gun at things you don't want to destroy) and finger discipline (not putting your finger inside the trigger guard until you are pretty darn certain that you want to make that shot) can go a LONG way toward preventing unintended discharges. Practice, practice, practice.

I can't agree more. Very well said. I certainly do hope that I will never need a gun. And if I do, never will I need to use it other than practicing.

I think that goes for every one here.

[Abraham]

kopking10,

If you prefer to remain passive in the event of an assault that's your choice.

Me, I'll defend myself and my family.

You said: "Bear in mind, we were brought up not to deal with violence and that the world is perfect."

That's illogical. By not dealing with violence you are volunteering to be a victim. Violence will definitely deal with you, most especially if meekly accept it. And, the world is far from perfect.

And no, I'm not obsessed with worry about assaults or criminals, but I won't stick my head in the sand and pretend they don't exist either. I am prepared as much as I can be to stop them if I have to...and so should you be.

Are you familiar with "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away"?

In other words, practice defensive self-reliance or passively accept your victim-hood.

Isn't protecting your family and yourself a duty?

[The Annoyed Man]

kopking10,

You posted: "Her idea was, if you have a gun, the robber sees you with a gun would most likely shoot you."

Please tell me if this is you or your wife's perspective: You're depending on the robber's kindness/reasonableness to do you no harm if you remain defenseless?

Do I have that right?

It's her opinion. And it make sense, No? If you read the Oregon shooting news, the shooter asked the students if they are Christian or not. If they are, he shoots. Relating to that, the shooter is looking for something that he could target. In this case, when he sees a gun, he will shoot.

I do agree that we couldn't hope of kindness from the shooter. Bear in mind, we were brought up not to deal with violence and that the world is perfect. Do you understand my point? I can't raise my kids telling them to worry about bad guys all the time. I just recalled the movie Iceman, where one of his victim prayed for God for mercy. The same with the other girl that hid in the closet and she was allowed to leave.

Actually, it does not make sense. Movies are not the real world. If someone is threatening me with a firearm, I'm going to shoot him first! Oregon has campus carry, but this particular school was a gun-free zone. There are literally millions of instances each year in which a gun prevented an attack on an armed citizen, and in many of those cases, the mere sight of the gun prevented the attack. Having a gun isn't even close to being a guarantee that you will be shot, and I am forced to ask where you got such an idea? What if one of those students had a concealed pistol and produced it while the shooter was distracted with murdering another student? That student could have shot the shooter and saved a half-dozen other lives. Your entire premise is that the armed victim will not DO SOMETHING with his/her gun. That's nuts. I carry exactly so that I am not unprepared if something like this should arise......not because I WANT it to, but because it can happen. Like others, I hope to never have to draw my gun, but if it comes to that, I will draw, and I will shoot the attacker first.....or maybe not....maybe I'll be shot first, but I will still shoot him. BTW, 80% or more of people shot with handguns actually survive their wounds. Some are shot and still fight back and shoot their attacker. A gunshot wound is a bad thing, but it isn't an automatic death sentence.

Perhaps you have heard of this analogy before, but read in the spirit of an Aesop's fable or something, with no insult intended toward you at all:

1. There are three kinds of people when it comes to the challenges of human confrontations:
   
   1. Wolves
   2. Sheep
   3. Sheepdogs
2. Wolves are looking for sheep to victimize, and they are also trying to keep an eye out for sheepdogs because they recognize sheepdogs as a potential threat to themselves.
3. The sheep are afraid of wolves, but their survival strategy is the same as any large schools of fish.....they count on the large number of other sheep minimizing the odds that they will be eaten themselves, and they count on the (non-existent) kindness of the wolf if the wolf focuses his attention directly on them. They want to believe that if they act from weakness, cry loud enough, and beg hard enough, the wolf will take pity on them. This is a pipe dream. The sheep also fear and tend to dislike the sheepdog because he has sharp teeth and claws and bears a resemblance to the wolf.
4. The sheep dogs are neither afraid of the wolves, nor do they care that much if the sheep like them. They have the teeth and claws to defend themselves from the wolves, and are confident in their ability to do so. Some of them become professional sheepdogs and protect the sheep. Those that don't become professional sheepdogs still take responsibility for protecting themselves, their mates, and their pups. One thing they don't do is to submit to the wolf and count on the non-existent kindness of the wolf, because they know that the wolf has no kindness in its genetic makeup, and because the sheepdog knows that the wolf sees sheepdogs either an impediment to his predations, or a competitor. Therefore he must be on the lookout for wolves on the edges of the flock.

It sounds to me like your wife is insisting on being a sheep; and in typical sheep fashion, she disapproves of sheepdogs and counts on the kindness of the wolf. She will be eaten. The shame of it is: so will you, and so will your pups. Being a sheep is a 100% losing strategy for dealing with wolves, and the wolves are not going to go away, no matter how tightly we squeeze our eyes shut and wish it to happen. You are either prepared to deal with them, or you are not.

It sounds to me like you want to be a sheepdog, but you are submitting to your wife's need to be a sheep.....which means that you don't have the sheepdog in you just yet. A sheepdog does not submit to sheep either. Not when it comes to matters of ensuring the safety of his mate and pups. I don't say this to offend you, and perhaps the longer you are here and the more you think this thing through, the more you will discover your inner sheepdog.

By the way, your writing makes you sound like you might be foreign born, which means that all this stuff about wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs may be culturally foreign to you........an adjustment you'll have to make if you are ever going to overcome your wife's objections. Do you mind my asking where you and your wife are from?