“No Firearms on Premises” Sign

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rotor
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#16

Post by rotor » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:34 pm

Grundy1133, when one says a sign has no legal weight I have to disagree and that was what my comment was about. The OP specifically asked if the No Firearms on Premises had any legal weight. He was notified that it did not for handgun carriers under their LTC. But it does have legal weight under other circumstances. It matters not what topic the post was posted on as to whether or not the sign has legal weight. It does, just not for LTC holders with a handgun.

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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#17

Post by RoyGBiv » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:50 am

Grundy1133 wrote:
rotor wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:
rotor wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:
chasfm11 wrote:Based on businesses like Buffalo Wild Wings, my expectation is that a business that posts any kind of a "no firearms" sign believes that they are restricting guns for anyone including those with licenses. Some businesses appear to be too lazy to do the State by State research and assume that what works in one State, works in another. I proceed with "concealed is concealed" but make sure that I'm not in a "barely concealed" setup. I've gotten more careless about that since OC passed in Texas. I'm always ready to respond, sign or not, to a verbal instruction to leave. If they don't want me there, I sure don't want to be there. We travel from State to State and I do look carefully in advance at the States where any sign carries the weight of law. Otherwise, I go about my business. I've OC enough to understand that most people aren't paying attention, even when the gun is visible.

I was just in a plumbing store last week. They had a 30.06 sign beside the front door - behind tinted glass that made it almost impossible to see standing right next to it. No way did it meet the tests for visibility in the TPC but there it was and I'm certain that they would have enforced it if I had been detected carrying there. I wasn't and have no plans to return. I'm betting that there is little difference in the mind set of many of the business owners with the "no firearms" signs and those who push the 30.06 sign requirements beyond their limits. It is just two different ways to get to the same point.
regardless of the business owners mindset, gun buster signs or "no firearms" signs aren't legally binding. only the 30.06 30.07 and 51% signs are.... like i said worst case scenario, they ask you to leave, cause legally that's all they can do. If they do ask you to leave just give a little nod and say thank you and walk out and never come back. :thumbs2:
Are you sure? What happens if you have a long gun? Are you trespassing carrying past a no firearms sign with a long gun? Your LTC means nothing in this situation. A long gun is a firearm, correct?
this is a LTC/CHL forum... if you wanna talk about rifles theres a whole sub section designated to shotguns and rifles... http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewforum.php?f=87
The OP asked if the sign carried any legal weight. My contention is that the sign does carry legal weight but not for LTC users carrying a hand gun. Similarly, a 30.06/07 sign does not prevent one from carrying a concealed rifle like a Kel-Tec sub-2000 or even an open long gun. This has been discussed many times on this forum. Your blanket statement about the signs not being legally binding I believe to be incorrect in relation to long gun firearms. Have a good day.
but the topic is posted under the "General Texas CHL Discussion" forum which implies he's referring to CC/OC. Have a great day. ;-)
You've been a member here for 8 days, already have >100 posts and you feel that you are the authority on where people should post what content.

Interesting.
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#18

Post by bayou » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:12 am

LOL A lot of newbies don't realize that some people read the recent posts and don't always go into the topic sections. It seems a lot of newbies also post on everything but I think its just their excitement about finding a group of somewhat like minded people.


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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#19

Post by treadlightly » Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:26 am

30.06 and 30.07 have no legal weight, as far as I can tell, for non-license holders. You have to jump through hoops and have a background check to be eligible for exclusion under 30.06/.07.

Gunbuster signs have no legal weight for those dashing young license holders and their shooting machines, but carry the social grace of a dinner invitation from Nancy Pelosi (or Beto O'Rourke).

In most cases. I appreciate businesses who wish to serve bubbleheads and post signs that say for the comfort of all customers they request no open carry. That's cool. There are people, even here in Texas, who don't understand a nice, law-abiding citizen doesn't change if there's a handgun in the picture. Such a sign doesn't really mean much and should not have enforceability, but I am happy to comply. It looks to me like ground gained, particularly as nervous nellies realize there are concealed handguns in their midst, causing no grief at all.

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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#20

Post by Grundy1133 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:33 am

RoyGBiv wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:
rotor wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:
rotor wrote:
Grundy1133 wrote:
chasfm11 wrote:Based on businesses like Buffalo Wild Wings, my expectation is that a business that posts any kind of a "no firearms" sign believes that they are restricting guns for anyone including those with licenses. Some businesses appear to be too lazy to do the State by State research and assume that what works in one State, works in another. I proceed with "concealed is concealed" but make sure that I'm not in a "barely concealed" setup. I've gotten more careless about that since OC passed in Texas. I'm always ready to respond, sign or not, to a verbal instruction to leave. If they don't want me there, I sure don't want to be there. We travel from State to State and I do look carefully in advance at the States where any sign carries the weight of law. Otherwise, I go about my business. I've OC enough to understand that most people aren't paying attention, even when the gun is visible.

I was just in a plumbing store last week. They had a 30.06 sign beside the front door - behind tinted glass that made it almost impossible to see standing right next to it. No way did it meet the tests for visibility in the TPC but there it was and I'm certain that they would have enforced it if I had been detected carrying there. I wasn't and have no plans to return. I'm betting that there is little difference in the mind set of many of the business owners with the "no firearms" signs and those who push the 30.06 sign requirements beyond their limits. It is just two different ways to get to the same point.
regardless of the business owners mindset, gun buster signs or "no firearms" signs aren't legally binding. only the 30.06 30.07 and 51% signs are.... like i said worst case scenario, they ask you to leave, cause legally that's all they can do. If they do ask you to leave just give a little nod and say thank you and walk out and never come back. :thumbs2:
Are you sure? What happens if you have a long gun? Are you trespassing carrying past a no firearms sign with a long gun? Your LTC means nothing in this situation. A long gun is a firearm, correct?
this is a LTC/CHL forum... if you wanna talk about rifles theres a whole sub section designated to shotguns and rifles... http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewforum.php?f=87
The OP asked if the sign carried any legal weight. My contention is that the sign does carry legal weight but not for LTC users carrying a hand gun. Similarly, a 30.06/07 sign does not prevent one from carrying a concealed rifle like a Kel-Tec sub-2000 or even an open long gun. This has been discussed many times on this forum. Your blanket statement about the signs not being legally binding I believe to be incorrect in relation to long gun firearms. Have a good day.
but the topic is posted under the "General Texas CHL Discussion" forum which implies he's referring to CC/OC. Have a great day. ;-)
You've been a member here for 8 days, already have >100 posts and you feel that you are the authority on where people should post what content.

Interesting.
No, i just have common sense and this sin't my first forum to be a member of... If someone posts a topic under a CHL discussion forum it's understood the topic is about CHL not rifles (when there's a forum dedicated specifically for rifle talk.)
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#21

Post by Keith B » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:27 pm

Grundy1133 wrote: No, i just have common sense and this sin't my first forum to be a member of... If someone posts a topic under a CHL discussion forum it's understood the topic is about CHL not rifles (when there's a forum dedicated specifically for rifle talk.)
It doesn't matter what area it's posted in. Topics drift as discussions and questions arrise, and as long as it is not against forum rules we allow the discussion.

So, if the OP clarifies he is talking about a different matter, like long guns, then it is permissible. Don't argue the semantics.

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C-dub
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#22

Post by C-dub » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:50 pm

I think what bothers me is the number of people that come around here and ask this question. How many that ask have their LTC or have been through the class. Or are we getting a bunch of folks that haven’t and are asking this question without knowing anything or much about LTC laws.
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#23

Post by Pariah3j » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:08 pm

C-dub wrote:I think what bothers me is the number of people that come around here and ask this question. How many that ask have their LTC or have been through the class. Or are we getting a bunch of folks that haven’t and are asking this question without knowing anything or much about LTC laws.
Lots of bad/wrong conflicting info out there, the OP pointed out they heard/read that signs like that could get you in trouble if you carried past them. I can understand, I was in the same place when I started my journey, had some similar questions as I got ready to take my class. Still occasionally learn new things about the law and carrying. The fact that someone is asking questions is a good thing IMO, as it means they are trying to understand and not just assume.
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#24

Post by TexasAggLTC » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Question:

The mall in College Station, TX has the 30.07 and 30.06 signs posted INSIDE of the main doors on the wall to the right. It was my understanding that those legal signs HAD to be posted on the outermost portion of the front doors to the establishment. In plain view to someone entering the building. Had I not looked over to the right, I would not have seen the signs...

What then?

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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#25

Post by C-dub » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:40 pm

30.06 signs don’t even have to be at an entrance.

30.07 signs only have to be at each entrance, but not specifically at the outermost point of each entrance.
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#26

Post by OneGun » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:24 pm

[sarcasm]
My understanding of a sign that says "No Firearms on Premises" is that the property owners are informing criminals that they do not have any firearms on the premises and that the location is safe for criminal activity. The sign did no say do not bring any firearms on to the premises. [/sarcasm]
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#27

Post by Grundy1133 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:27 pm

OneGun wrote:[sarcasm]
My understanding of a sign that says "No Firearms on Premises" is that the property owners are informing criminals that they do not have any firearms on the premises and that the location is safe for criminal activity. The sign did no say do not bring any firearms on to the premises. [/sarcasm]
#Context haha thats great.
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#28

Post by TexasJohnBoy » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:58 pm

If someone with authority in an establishment tells you "you can't carry a gun in here" you've been notified under 30.06 or 30.07, regardless if there is a sign. Leave, or risk a Class A misdemenor and revocation of your LTC for up to five years. (I added 'up to' because of http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... tm#411.186 which states you can reapply after 2 years. I thought it was 5 but maybe this has changed?)

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY LICENSE HOLDER WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:

(1) carries a concealed handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another without effective consent; and

(2) received notice that entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden.

(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.
(c) In this section:

(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).

(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by license holder with a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (handgun licensing law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

(d) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication described by Subsection (b) and subsequently failed to depart.
Emphasis mine.

Gun buster sign by itself, or any other rendition of a sign that is no guns permitted, carries no weight of law. A card with the 30.06/30.07 verbiage handed to you does. Any verbal communication that you can't carry does. Of course, a 30.06/30.07 sign properly posted does as well.
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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#29

Post by rotor » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:03 am

TexasJohnBoy wrote:
Gun buster sign by itself, or any other rendition of a sign that is no guns permitted, carries no weight of law. A card with the 30.06/30.07 verbiage handed to you does. Any verbal communication that you can't carry does. Of course, a 30.06/30.07 sign properly posted does as well.
Carries no weight of law for LTC holders with hand guns but does carry weight of law for non-LTC holders and for long guns. Please do not give me the "this is a LTC forum" again. Let's not state categorically that a No Firearms sign carries no weight of law. If you carry your shotgun (or your sub2000 in a briefcase) into a store with a No Firearms sign regardless of your LTC you might be cited or just asked to leave or whatever punishment they want to throw at you for trespassing. Now if it were a No Guns with the standard Beretta symbol I would agree with the "no weight". A No Firearms notice is different. Where are all the legal experts to chime in?


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Re: “No Firearms on Premises” Sign

#30

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:01 pm

rotor wrote:
TexasJohnBoy wrote:
Gun buster sign by itself, or any other rendition of a sign that is no guns permitted, carries no weight of law. A card with the 30.06/30.07 verbiage handed to you does. Any verbal communication that you can't carry does. Of course, a 30.06/30.07 sign properly posted does as well.
Carries no weight of law for LTC holders with hand guns but does carry weight of law for non-LTC holders and for long guns. Please do not give me the "this is a LTC forum" again. Let's not state categorically that a No Firearms sign carries no weight of law. If you carry your shotgun (or your sub2000 in a briefcase) into a store with a No Firearms sign regardless of your LTC you might be cited or just asked to leave or whatever punishment they want to throw at you for trespassing. Now if it were a No Guns with the standard Beretta symbol I would agree with the "no weight". A No Firearms notice is different. Where are all the legal experts to chime in?
Semantics aside, I would disagree that you are breaking the law by carrying your sub-2000 past a sign that says "no firearms on premises". I would simply ask, "what law are you supposed to have violated in this scenario?"

Let's start with what that sign even means. The simple English definition is that there are no firearms on those particular premises. Interesting info. If this is a place that sells things, you might have thought they sold firearms. Apparently, the sign is educating you that they do not currently have any firearms for sale so you don't waste your time going in there to buy one.

Importantly, let's consider what the sign is NOT saying. It does not say that your entry is prohibited if you step onto the property carrying a firearm. To assign that meaning would require a huge leap of faith. I have driven my car with a half full tank of gas onto a gas station lot past a sign that said "no gas". Did that sign mean that entry onto these premises with gasoline is forbidden, like we are trying to read into this "no firearms" sign? If so, am I guilty of trespassing with my half tank of gas? If the owners wanted to issue a trespass warning to anyone that is carrying a firearm, or carrying gasoline, or whatever, they would have said so. Let's stop assuming that business owners are too ignorant to say what they actually mean.

It's like the humorous signs at Buffalo Wild Wings that say they "ban all guns". Those are obviously a joke since they do not in fact ban all guns. They could ban some guns, but have chosen not to do so. By posting these signs they are just pointing out the irony. If they were telling the truth and they were somehow able to ban all guns, then they couldn't have you arrested for trespassing or anything else since they would have also banned on duty LEO's at all times. Like I said. It's a humorous sign that is meant to be ironic.
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