Frisco ISD

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m2foster
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Frisco ISD

#1

Post by m2foster » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:53 pm

Last night I attended an awards ceremony at the Frisco ISD admin building. I did not see a 30.06 sign (most Frisco ISD schools have them; yes, I know, technically, they're not appropriate to a school). If anyone with legal or CHL instructor credentials could address my question, I'd appreciate it.

My question is: Is the Frisco ISD admin building considered a school because of the type of activities that go on in the building?

I found it interesting that they didn't post a 30.06 sign when they do post them on all the schools. I'm not sure how to read that. Thank you in advance.


n5wd
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Re: Frisco ISD

#2

Post by n5wd » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:16 pm

Not a legal opinion, of course, but I do not think that school district administration buildings count as "schools" with regards to CHL laws, as there is no instruction activity, and usually no school kids taking classes in the building. That's with regards to larger ISD's like Frisco, Fort Worth, Northwest, etc. For a very small district that might house their admin folks inside a school building, that'd be different. But, not under the circumstances that you're describing.

But, that said, you'd still be prevented from carrying since the ISD is most certainly a governmental agency, if you were there at the school board meeting, that would qualify as a governmental meeting.
At other times, I'd say that it couldn't be posted with 30.06 (well, it COULD, but it wouldn't mean anything) since it's a property owned by a governmental agency.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Frisco ISD

#3

Post by The Annoyed Man » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:30 pm

n5wd wrote:Not a legal opinion, of course, but I do not think that school district administration buildings count as "schools" with regards to CHL laws, as there is no instruction activity, and usually no school kids taking classes in the building. That's with regards to larger ISD's like Frisco, Fort Worth, Northwest, etc. For a very small district that might house their admin folks inside a school building, that'd be different. But, not under the circumstances that you're describing.

But, that said, you'd still be prevented from carrying since the ISD is most certainly a governmental agency, if you were there at the school board meeting, that would qualify as a governmental meeting.
At other times, I'd say that it couldn't be posted with 30.06 (well, it COULD, but it wouldn't mean anything) since it's a property owned by a governmental agency.
I wouldn't want to stake my freedom on that. When I paid my tax bill to the Grapevine/Colleyville ISD in January, the building I paid at is located a full block, block and a half away from any of the Grapevine High School classroom buildings, on the other side of a major thoroughfare, fenced off from and behind the parking lot for the school's football stadium. It shares a tiny parking lot with some smaller municipal agency.

When I went in there to pay, I left my gun in the car, and while inside, I made it a point of asking both the woman who took my payment and her supervisor if, for purposes of CHL, this building was considered a school building, or is considered a tax office? Apparently, I'm far from the first person to ask. They both told me that for CHL purposes, that building was part of the Grapevine High School campus, and CHL is not allowed inside. And by the way, neither of these two ladies appeared in the least worried or negative about CHL. They were just answering the question at face value.

In my experience, both here and in California, ISD administrative buildings are typically located on part of some school's campus, so even if there are no classes being taught in that building, it is still technically part of the school. At the high school from which I graduated, the principal's, vice-principal's, and other administrative offices were in a free-standing building in which there were zero classrooms. Still part of the school campus. I realize that's commiefornia, but even here in Texas, my guess is that if a district admin building is located on a campus, then for purposes of CHL it is off limits — probably on the grounds that student groups might have some officially sanctioned reason to visit the building in groups for one reason or another.
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RoyGBiv
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Re: Frisco ISD

#4

Post by RoyGBiv » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:43 am

Admin building is very clearly off limits, IMO.
PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense
if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a
firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds
or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution
is being conducted
,
Is the school admin building part of an "educational institution"? Of course it is.
Is it part of a "school sponsored activity"? I could argue "No", but I'd bet against myself on that one. :mrgreen:
No way I'd carry there under current law. YMMV

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Re: Frisco ISD

#5

Post by mloamiller » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:59 pm

This is one of those areas where the law is very unclear, since it does not specifically define what a "school" is and isn't (the penal code does in other areas, but not related to CHL). If an ISD admin building falls into that category, and it certainly sounds like it could, then:
  • Does "educational institution" include Lincoln Tech, Sears Driver Training, a place in a strip center giving pottery lessons?
    Does "any grounds ... activity sponsored by a school..." include the 7-11 hosting a car wash for the local HS band?
I've always believed that a "school" meant what we think of traditionally - an elementary school, Jr. high, Sr. high - but I can't see where that definition comes from, as it relates to CHL. 46.035 gives a more concise definition, but 46.03 still applies as well.
:banghead:
Sec. 46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution is being conducted, or a passenger transportation vehicle of a school or educational institution, whether the school or educational institution is public or private, unless pursuant to written regulations or written authorization of the institution;
(f) It is not a defense to prosecution under this section that the actor possessed a handgun and was licensed to carry a concealed handgun under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code.
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
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The Wall
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Re: Frisco ISD

#6

Post by The Wall » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:55 pm

Aren't schools, churches,hospitals and a few others written in the law as places a CHL can't carry? Because of that are they required to post a 30.06?


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Re: Frisco ISD

#7

Post by Dave2 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:20 pm

The Wall wrote:Aren't schools, churches,hospitals and a few others written in the law as places a CHL can't carry? Because of that are they required to post a 30.06?
Churches and hospitals (and amusement parks) are not off-limits. They law says they are, but then at the end of the section it says "Wait, no, we've changed our minds.... You can carry there". They can still be posted 30.06, though, and most hospitals in particular are, so be careful.

Edit: To be clear, schools are off-limits. Somebody in the school (I forget exactly who... the principal or superintendent or something) have the legal authority to give you permission to carry inside, but I don't think it's done very often. Also, I'm not sure if they can make a blanket policy, or if permission has to be granted to each person individually.

Speaking of which, does anyone know why they amended the law like that instead of just removing the section in question? It's caused no end of confusion.
Last edited by Dave2 on Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frisco ISD

#8

Post by ScooterSissy » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:25 pm

Dave2 wrote:
The Wall wrote:Aren't schools, churches,hospitals and a few others written in the law as places a CHL can't carry? Because of that are they required to post a 30.06?
Churches and hospitals (and amusement parks) are not off-limits. They law says they are, but then at the end of the section it says "Wait, no, we've changed our minds.... You can carry there". They can still be posted 30.06, though, and most hospitals in particular are, so be careful.

Speaking of which, does anyone know why they amended the law like that instead of just removing the section in question? It's caused no end of confusion.
My understanding from friends that are politicians is that laws are seldom removed. They're amended to make them ineffective. This keeps a "running tab" of revisions.

That's why we still have the 18th amendment to the US Constitution, along with the 21st.

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Re: Frisco ISD

#9

Post by Keith B » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:31 pm

Here is a link to a post by our forum owner/resident legal eagle on school admin buildings and his view http://texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 6&p=190651" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is his post quoted:
I understand the argument that "school" should be limited to classrooms and other buildings where the kids are present. However, "school" isn't defined in the penal code (yet :thumbs2: ) so we have no guidance. I have been asked if administration buildings on school grounds and off school grounds are off-limits. My advice is treat everything on the school grounds as off-limits, even administrative buildings. Administrative buildings not on school campuses are a bit more ambiguous, but it is entirely possible an appellate court would take the easy way out and rule that any building owned by a school district, college, etc. is off-limits. In my view that would be overly broad.

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m2foster
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Re: Frisco ISD

#10

Post by m2foster » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:46 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I just received the invite for the next round of CHL instructor classes, and I'm going to ask them to clarify this point. Also, based on the replies above, there seems to be some ambiguity on what constitutes premises. I have it in my notes from the CHL class that premises only includes buildings, not parking lots, so I will ask about that as well.

If anyone has new/additional information, please post it. I am interested in furthering the discussion.

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Re: Frisco ISD

#11

Post by goose » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:27 pm

RoyGBiv wrote:Admin building is very clearly off limits, IMO.
PC §46.03. PLACES WEAPONS PROHIBITED. (a) A person commits an offense
if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly possesses or goes with a
firearm, illegal knife, club, or prohibited weapon listed in Section 46.05(a):
(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational institution, any grounds
or building on which an activity sponsored by a school or educational institution
is being conducted
,
Is the school admin building part of an "educational institution"? Of course it is.
Is it part of a "school sponsored activity"? I could argue "No", but I'd bet against myself on that one. :mrgreen:
No way I'd carry there under current law. YMMV

My OPINION. IANAL.
I am going to land in this camp as well. I know that my eldest son was invited (and did) to display some multimedia art he had created in class, at the administration building for our ISD. In my mind that is an activity sponsored by a school. If there is any chance in heck a kid could be in that building, I don't even want to come close to having to convince a judge or jury that it was okay for me to carry there. Picking out twelve jurors that would agree it was okay, and getting the prosecuting attorney to consent to those twelve jurors, might be a trick. I won't be carrying there any time soon.
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Re: Frisco ISD

#12

Post by ElGato » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:52 pm

Agree with the quote from Charles that was posted, but just want to comment about who to ask about CHL carry on any premise, the folks who work there usually have no idea about law concerning CHL carry. I tell my students to never ask anyone at the place in question about CHL carry, I tell them to come here to discuss it with you on this forum.
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