Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

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canvasbck
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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#31

Post by canvasbck » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:47 pm

clarionite wrote:
canvasbck wrote: I don't think you will see as many 30.07 signs as you think you will. I'm responsible for writing and enforcing the firearms policies at our facility (at the direction of managers). When HB910 passed, I recommended that we update our 30.06 signs prior to Jan 1 to maintain compliance, but recommended to NOT post 30.07 signs since OC was readily apparent and providing verbal notification carried the same weight of law as a sign would. Management and legal councel agreed with that assessment. We will NOT be posting 30.07, but will be updating our 30.06 signs to maintain compliance.
If I were a business owner that wanted to restrict Open Carry in my facility, I don't think I'd want to leave the confrontation up to my employees. I'd rather post the sign, and if there was someone who carried past the sign have the employee call the police to deal with it. I can't imagine asking employees to be the ones to confront armed customers.
Being the type facility that we are (a chemical plant) we have the "luxury" of having a controlled gate to everywhere inside the secure area and only one building outside the secure area. The receptionist in that building is one of our security officers, so we are considerably different than a business that is open to the public.

Malls, and similar establishments that do have a security force could use the same approach.
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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#32

Post by OldCannon » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:56 pm

clarionite wrote:
canvasbck wrote: I don't think you will see as many 30.07 signs as you think you will. I'm responsible for writing and enforcing the firearms policies at our facility (at the direction of managers). When HB910 passed, I recommended that we update our 30.06 signs prior to Jan 1 to maintain compliance, but recommended to NOT post 30.07 signs since OC was readily apparent and providing verbal notification carried the same weight of law as a sign would. Management and legal councel agreed with that assessment. We will NOT be posting 30.07, but will be updating our 30.06 signs to maintain compliance.
If I were a business owner that wanted to restrict Open Carry in my facility, I don't think I'd want to leave the confrontation up to my employees. I'd rather post the sign, and if there was someone who carried past the sign have the employee call the police to deal with it. I can't imagine asking employees to be the ones to confront armed customers.
Again reinforcing the popular notion that CHL'ers are spoiling for a fight. Considering that the conviction rate is a fraction of a percent of what the non-CHL population has, it (sadly) affirms the notion that a CHL-holder that is openly carrying will choose to confront/escalate when asked to leave an establishment.
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The Annoyed Man
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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#33

Post by The Annoyed Man » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:23 pm

locke_n_load wrote:So, is there a hard requirement to hand over CHL if the only thing you are doing is OCing and minding your own business? I will give up the license for the first half year or so, but after that, I might ask the officer what cause they had to stop me from my business around town.
The only requirement is the same as it always was..... if asked for ID while armed, the requirement to show both TDL and CHL still remains. However, the penalty for failure to disclose the CHL was removed a few years ago.

You make of that what you will. Personally, I maintain that it is both good will, good community relations, AND good politics to cooperate with a request for ID, even if not required. You can always file a complaint later. But filing that complaint is a LOT harder from a jail cell after you escalated the situation by refusing to show your ID. Yes, that is a 4th amendment intrusion. Yes, Terry stops have SCOTUS approved guidelines, and if they are not followed by the LEO in question, then you are not obligated to cooperate. Yes, if refusing to cooperate escalates to the point of confrontation, a wooden shampoo, and an arrest, the cop might be in the wrong, but you are guilty of walking while stupid.

Understand that if you are accosted by an LEO while OCing, he is in all likelihood responding to a MWAG call, and he is just trying to do his job. Do you want to leave him with the impression that you are a good guy, or do you want to leave him with the impression that you are an obnoxious cretin? THAT decision is entirely within your power to control, along with its outcome.

There is going to be a period of adjustment here that we both—citizens and cops—are going to have to figure out. Personally, and as part of my particular religious convictions, I believe that showing a little grace never killed anybody......especially when it is not convenient. OTH, refusing to show grace might have.
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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#34

Post by EEllis » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:42 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:
locke_n_load wrote:So, is there a hard requirement to hand over CHL if the only thing you are doing is OCing and minding your own business? I will give up the license for the first half year or so, but after that, I might ask the officer what cause they had to stop me from my business around town.
The only requirement is the same as it always was..... if asked for ID while armed, the requirement to show both TDL and CHL still remains. However, the penalty for failure to disclose the CHL was removed a few years ago.

You make of that what you will. Personally, I maintain that it is both good will, good community relations, AND good politics to cooperate with a request for ID, even if not required. You can always file a complaint later. But filing that complaint is a LOT harder from a jail cell after you escalated the situation by refusing to show your ID. Yes, that is a 4th amendment intrusion. Yes, Terry stops have SCOTUS approved guidelines, and if they are not followed by the LEO in question, then you are not obligated to cooperate. Yes, if refusing to cooperate escalates to the point of confrontation, a wooden shampoo, and an arrest, the cop might be in the wrong, but you are guilty of walking while stupid.

Understand that if you are accosted by an LEO while OCing, he is in all likelihood responding to a MWAG call, and he is just trying to do his job. Do you want to leave him with the impression that you are a good guy, or do you want to leave him with the impression that you are an obnoxious cretin? THAT decision is entirely within your power to control, along with its outcome.

There is going to be a period of adjustment here that we both—citizens and cops—are going to have to figure out. Personally, and as part of my particular religious convictions, I believe that showing a little grace never killed anybody......especially when it is not convenient. OTH, refusing to show grace might have.
I also think this show the situation that I mentioned in my previous post. LnL wants to be able to judge for himself if the officer is reasonable in request or orders for his CHL. It just doesn't work that way. As TAM said it's something you worry about later. That you did nothing wrong does not mean an officer can't have RS. There is no way you can initially know that so don't pull a CJ. It most likely won't end any better for you than it did him.

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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#35

Post by varko » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:44 pm

The Annoyed Man wrote:There is going to be a period of adjustment here that we both—citizens and cops—are going to have to figure out. Personally, and as part of my particular religious convictions, I believe that showing a little grace never killed anybody......especially when it is not convenient. OTH, refusing to show grace might have.
:iagree:

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And if I were called upon to identify briefly the principal trait of the entire twentieth century, here too, I would be unable to find anything more precise and pithy than to repeat once again: Men have forgotten God. - Alexander Solzhenitsyn


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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#36

Post by b322da » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:14 pm

EEllis wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote:
locke_n_load wrote:So, is there a hard requirement to hand over CHL if the only thing you are doing is OCing and minding your own business? I will give up the license for the first half year or so, but after that, I might ask the officer what cause they had to stop me from my business around town.
The only requirement is the same as it always was..... if asked for ID while armed, the requirement to show both TDL and CHL still remains. However, the penalty for failure to disclose the CHL was removed a few years ago.

You make of that what you will. Personally, I maintain that it is both good will, good community relations, AND good politics to cooperate with a request for ID, even if not required. You can always file a complaint later. But filing that complaint is a LOT harder from a jail cell after you escalated the situation by refusing to show your ID. Yes, that is a 4th amendment intrusion. Yes, Terry stops have SCOTUS approved guidelines, and if they are not followed by the LEO in question, then you are not obligated to cooperate. Yes, if refusing to cooperate escalates to the point of confrontation, a wooden shampoo, and an arrest, the cop might be in the wrong, but you are guilty of walking while stupid.

Understand that if you are accosted by an LEO while OCing, he is in all likelihood responding to a MWAG call, and he is just trying to do his job. Do you want to leave him with the impression that you are a good guy, or do you want to leave him with the impression that you are an obnoxious cretin? THAT decision is entirely within your power to control, along with its outcome.

There is going to be a period of adjustment here that we both—citizens and cops—are going to have to figure out. Personally, and as part of my particular religious convictions, I believe that showing a little grace never killed anybody......especially when it is not convenient. OTH, refusing to show grace might have.
I also think this show the situation that I mentioned in my previous post. LnL wants to be able to judge for himself if the officer is reasonable in request or orders for his CHL. It just doesn't work that way. As TAM said it's something you worry about later. That you did nothing wrong does not mean an officer can't have RS. There is no way you can initially know that so don't pull a CJ. It most likely won't end any better for you than it did him.
I couldn't agree more with both TAM and EEllis. :tiphat: :tiphat:

The macho, aggressive, "But ah'm a Texan, who knows the Bill of Rights better than some dumb cop does" attitude, is guaranteed to be spoiling for a fight, and he with that attitude will undoubtedly eventually find one, and he will most likely find his leverage to be slim or none (if he lives through it). On the other hand, the attitude suggested by the two of you is well-calculated to encourage mutual respect and mutual knowledge about both the new law and its interface with our Constitution.

Jim


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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#37

Post by SherwoodForest » Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:43 pm

If the goal is to "sell" the somewhat dusty practice of law-abiding citizens going peacefully armed in the public square....some attention to MARKETING would seem to be prudent....( presenting/displaying the product you wish to sell in an appealing fashion ).

The "product" of course being YOU wearing a holstered gun.....and the "sale" being you not being asked to LEAVE THE PREMISES !


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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#38

Post by locke_n_load » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:50 pm

If you read all of my posts, you will see that I never said I was going to refuse to ID, I simply said that after 6 months, I'm going to ask the officer what was the problem, and ask him/her if they pull over drivers and ask to see their licenses. I plan on OCing nearly every day.
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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#39

Post by EEllis » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:00 pm

locke_n_load wrote:If you read all of my posts, you will see that I never said I was going to refuse to ID, I simply said that after 6 months, I'm going to ask the officer what was the problem, and ask him/her if they pull over drivers and ask to see their licenses. I plan on OCing nearly every day.
And I would bet that is comes of as confrontational and aggressive to the officer and that's most likely the best case scenario. You are assuming that if a cop would stop you that they couldn't have a legitimate and legal reason. You just can't know that. I think having that mindset will increase the likelihood of a negative encounter. If your stopped and hand over your ID then ask why and the Cop says something that indicates he believes he can stop you a will without any other reason than you're carrying then you should put up with his ID check and then file a complaint, contact your rep or senator, and any number of action. None of those include confronting a cop in the middle of a stop. But that's just me I know CJ would disagree.

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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#40

Post by canvasbck » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:58 pm

EEllis wrote:
locke_n_load wrote:If you read all of my posts, you will see that I never said I was going to refuse to ID, I simply said that after 6 months, I'm going to ask the officer what was the problem, and ask him/her if they pull over drivers and ask to see their licenses. I plan on OCing nearly every day.
And I would bet that is comes of as confrontational and aggressive to the officer and that's most likely the best case scenario. You are assuming that if a cop would stop you that they couldn't have a legitimate and legal reason. You just can't know that. I think having that mindset will increase the likelihood of a negative encounter. If your stopped and hand over your ID then ask why and the Cop says something that indicates he believes he can stop you a will without any other reason than you're carrying then you should put up with his ID check and then file a complaint, contact your rep or senator, and any number of action. None of those include confronting a cop in the middle of a stop. But that's just me I know CJ would disagree.
:iagree: IF you plan on questioning the cop, it's probably best to wait until the stop is complete and he has said you are free to go. Then, and only then, would be an appropriate time to pose a question in the form of, "out of curiosity, I was wondering if there was something other than the fact that I'm carrying that prompted you to stop and ID me".

As was said before, if the stops reach the level of being abusive, file complaints with the local department and document each and every stop.
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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#41

Post by locke_n_load » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:31 pm

My demeanor would be such as this, while handing over license "what seems to be the problem officer?"
There is nothing wrong with that, and if the officer thinks that is confrontational, then they need a desk job.

I like the "out of curiosity" approach as well. If they say something like "I saw you had a gun and wanted to check you" or something along those lines, I will ask for name and badge number and will file a complaint.
"They that would give up Essential Liberty, for a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety"

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Re: Spoiling for a fight? You'll probably find one!

#42

Post by The Annoyed Man » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:07 am

locke_n_load wrote:My demeanor would be such as this, while handing over license "what seems to be the problem officer?"
There is nothing wrong with that, and if the officer thinks that is confrontational, then they need a desk job.

I like the "out of curiosity" approach as well. If they say something like "I saw you had a gun and wanted to check you" or something along those lines, I will ask for name and badge number and will file a complaint.
That is not unreasonable.

The main thing are, how do you carry yourself? What's in your tone of voice? These are the more subtle visual and tonal cues that cops, by professional necessity, are probably a lot more in tune with than the average person. If you object to his reasoning, are you going to get all bowed up and squinty eyed when you DEMAND his name and badge# in a raised voice ......or, when you ask, are you going to ask for name and badge# politely and in a more or less neutral tone of voice? The nature of policing is that they are responders. They respond in kind +1 to whatever situation they are put in by the demands of their jobs, because they have to maintain control over the situation, whatever it is. Control is maintained by a +1 response. If you respond with neutral or friendly tone and body language, you will elicit a similar response from them. If you respond with hostile tone, you'll be doing nothing more than alerting him to the possibility of impending aggression, etc., etc. But until the point at which he has to respond physically, YOU control which direction the conversation is going in......... maybe not the topic..... but you are in control of whether or not it is going to be a friendly or hostile encounter. THAT power is 100% in your hands, and since it is, and since avoiding an argument, deescalation, and conflict resolution are skills you supposedly covered in your CHL class, acutally using them is a great idea.
Give me Liberty, or I'll get up and get it myself.—Hookalakah Meshobbab
I don't carry because of the odds, I carry because of the stakes.—The Annoyed Boy
My dream is to have lived my life so well that future generations of leftists will demand my name be removed from buildings.

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