Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

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Rrash
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Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#1

Post by Rrash » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:21 pm

I'm outside of the Anatole in Dallas with my family. I just noticed that it is posted with the new 30.06/ 30.07 signs, but the old (current) ones are gone. Am I good to enter? I'm at an event with my family and we have had to park offsite.


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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#2

Post by stingeragent » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:31 pm

Id say no. If it posted its off limits

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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#3

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:37 pm

TPC §§30.06 and 30.07 require specific language for a sign to be valid. The proper wording on a 30.06 sign today is different from the requirement that will be in effect as of Jan. 1, 2016.

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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#4

Post by Rrash » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:41 pm

Thank you Charles. That is how I understood it. I wanted to get some concrete advice, as I needed to make a quick enter/return to the car decision in a fairly sketchy fringe area. Thank you for the quick response!


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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#5

Post by stingeragent » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:27 pm

While Charles is correct, hypothetically if someone makes out your concealed firearm, and calls the police, you better hope the cop has a thorough understanding of the law, otherwise you are taking a ride. To me, not worth it.


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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#6

Post by jed » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:05 pm

:iagree: I won't go in even if there's a hand written, with a sharpie or crayon, sign that has 30.06 on it. I see 30.06 and I'm out. I figure they know enough that "30.06" keeps CC out. That's enough for me to take my money elsewhere and prevent me from taking the ride. I refuse to get caught up in all the letter size, proper wording and such.


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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#7

Post by stingeragent » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:06 pm

I'll agree with ya on that. There are certain things you can easily talk to an officer about and resolve. For instance if there is no 30.06 sign, and some random person makes a MWAG call. That's an easy situation to walk free from. However, if they have a 30.06 sign posted, maybe its correct, maybe it's not, I would guess the majority of the time the cop is gonna say it's posted 30.06, and you are gonna have to fight it out in court. Granted, you would most likely win, but I'm not going through all that hassle if it's easily avoided in the first place. Legalities aside, if they have some form of 30.06 sign posted, the business owners clearly do not want you there. They too obviously didn't research the law enough to post the correct verbiage but their intent is clear. I wouldn't go in.

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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#8

Post by Skiprr » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:42 pm

From those of us who have been around this environment for one or two decades--not months--trust me, the very same conversation comes up every time there is a legislative change.

The law is the law. An invalid posting is an invalid posting. Now, I'm not one to pull out a ruler and try to confirm letters on signage are at least one-inch and not 63/64ths. But I also don't concern myself with outdated 30.05 or "gunbuster" signs. And won't with outdated 30.06 signage come January.

Admittedly, OC is a different animal because it's all out there. I plan to OC very seldom, and perhaps only while at PSC. But the OP was about CC, and Charles gave him the definitive statement.
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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#9

Post by stingeragent » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:06 am

I totally agree. I just try to be on the side of caution. While the OP is clearly within their legal right, sometimes you will be forced to prove that legal right in court. Granted if he's concealed, 99% of the time, no one will know and there is no problem. But the time there is a problem, you are at the mercy of the officer and how well they know the law. I'm not a huge fan of the OCT group, but you can look at hundreds of youtube videos where people were in there full legal right to be carrying and still got arrested. They may have come out on top in the end but I'm not going through the hassle for something simple.

Edit: If you think about it, if you are the unlucky one, you get a night in jail. You end up missing work the next day. What if you had been sick a lot recently and had no more absences allowed. You also have court fees, possible lawyer fees, and everything else just to prove your innocent. Again, you very may well win, but your still out the time and money to prove your innocence. One of those open carry guys that got arrested at the capitol a year or 2 ago. He was completely legal to be there, got arrested anyways, and spent almost a year in legal battles to prove he was legally able to be there. Yes all charges were dropped, but a year long battle to prove that? I'll pass.


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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#10

Post by Rrash » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:15 am

Gentlemen, if someone makes you with a firearm, you're doing it wrong.

I was concerned with the legality, as I was meeting people inside, I was with my wife and children, and had parked offsite in a fringe area not on Hilton's property. I needed to make a quick decision whether or not to return to the car, or take advantage of Hilton's zeal for gfz's. The new 30.06 clearly states "effective January 1 2016" and I wanted to confirm that I was reading it correctly as an invalid posting for the date 12/22/2015.


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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#11

Post by stingeragent » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:24 am

Your completely right in all regards. I'll leave the thread alone. I always tend to think worst case scenario. I'm sure you were and will be fine, and were completely legal in doing so.


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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#12

Post by FCH » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:04 am

jed wrote:...I won't go in even if there's a hand written, with a sharpie or crayon, sign that has 30.06 on it. I see 30.06 and I'm out. I figure they know enough that "30.06" keeps CC out. That's enough for me to take my money elsewhere and prevent me from taking the ride. I refuse to get caught up in all the letter size, proper wording and such.
I agree with jed. If they don't want your gun, then they don't want your gun. Go someplace else or disarm.
I thought the real reason for the specifics about the signs is to protect CCers from being trapped by some little sign in a corner or behind a counter, etc. thus protecting the CCer from malicious prosecution.
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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#13

Post by The Wall » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:08 am

I personally don't care if they have a sign written in crayon on a piece of toilet paper. If it's private property and they don't want firearms inside I'm not going in. If they have both 30.06 and 30.07 signs posted I think they're trying to tell you something regardless of the effective date for the signs. I don't know why folks find this so hard to understand. They don't have to post any signs. They can just tell you to get out if they see or know you're carrying. It's private property.

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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#14

Post by Charles L. Cotton » Wed Dec 23, 2015 1:25 am

stingeragent wrote:I totally agree. I just try to be on the side of caution. While the OP is clearly within their legal right, sometimes you will be forced to prove that legal right in court. Granted if he's concealed, 99% of the time, no one will know and there is no problem. But the time there is a problem, you are at the mercy of the officer and how well they know the law. I'm not a huge fan of the OCT group, but you can look at hundreds of youtube videos where people were in there full legal right to be carrying and still got arrested. They may have come out on top in the end but I'm not going through the hassle for something simple.

Edit: If you think about it, if you are the unlucky one, you get a night in jail. You end up missing work the next day. What if you had been sick a lot recently and had no more absences allowed. You also have court fees, possible lawyer fees, and everything else just to prove your innocent. Again, you very may well win, but your still out the time and money to prove your innocence. One of those open carry guys that got arrested at the capitol a year or 2 ago. He was completely legal to be there, got arrested anyways, and spent almost a year in legal battles to prove he was legally able to be there. Yes all charges were dropped, but a year long battle to prove that? I'll pass.
Remember, a LEO cannot make a good faith arrest for something that is not unlawful. Therefore, they will be subject to a §1983 civil rights lawsuit. Plus, the property owner who had you arrested would face a malicious prosecution civil lawsuit that they would likely lose. It's not necessary that the person actually be prosecuted. All that is required to support the lawsuit is that you were denied liberty via the arrest.

Finally, most officers would call the DA to see if they would accept charges. With all the publicity surrounding open-carry and the change in language for 30.06 signs, the ADA would certainly tell the LEO that the sign was not valid and no charges would be accepted.

I'm not suggesting that anyone enter a building with a 30.06 sign bearing 2016 wording, I just answered the OP's question.

Chas.


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Re: Are the new 30.06 signs valid now, or not until 2016?

#15

Post by amaly23 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 2:44 am

We shouldn't have to deal with the 30.06 signs. They should just be abolished.
If a property owner doesn't want concealed guns on their premises, they should post metal detectors at each entrance or if somehow your gun becomes revealed (even though it shouldn't because concealed means concealed), the owner or someone who has authority to act for the owner can tell you to leave or face tresspassing charges (Class B misdemeanor I believe).

This is the way that it is in the majority of other states, including Utah, Colorado, California, Kansas, Oklahoma, Missouri (the law specifically says it is not a crime unless you refuse to leave), Iowa, Indiana, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Delaware, Maryland (no law could be found that said that no gun signs had the force of law), Washington, Montana, North Dakota, Oregon, Idaho, Kentucky,Virginia,West Virginia, Georgia, Nevada. Florida, Pennsylvania, and South Dakota. Why should Texas be different?

30.07 signs are a different matter though.

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