walmart asking for chl

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mojo84
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Re: walmart asking for chl

#136

Post by mojo84 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:58 pm

warnmar10 wrote:
mojo84 wrote:Why do you think they do not have a right to ask? The government makes them liable if someone openly carries a gun without a license. Do you not think there are certain terms and conditions under which you enter their property?

By the way, just to illustrate they do have a right to ask, can I see a copy of your LTC? What is your shoe size? What is the name of your first girlfriend? What is your home phone number?

See, I have a right to ask you anything. You have the right to answer or not. In the case of Wal-Mart and you don't show your LTC, they have the right to ask you to leave. Pretty simple really.
Is it the case that the holder of a liquor license is obligated to ask an open carrier to see his LTC? I asked earlier and I think my question was buried. I get that "the store" can ask for whatever reason but are they obliged to? What happens to the liquor license holder if they don't ID open carriers?
They have an obligation to follow the TABC rules that govern their liquor license. Asking to see an LTC of an open carried seems like a logic and expedient way to verify they are in compliance. Do you not agree?
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Countryside
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Re: walmart asking for chl

#137

Post by Countryside » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:13 pm

Man...I understand the need for a law abiding society...but do ya ever think that sometimes there's just too many stinkin' laws? :???:

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mojo84
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Re: walmart asking for chl

#138

Post by mojo84 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:14 pm

Countryside wrote:Man...I understand the need for a law abiding society...but do ya ever think that sometimes there's just too many stinkin' laws? :???:
Yes, I do.

That's why I get all riled up as a business owner. The laws, rules and taxes can put one out of business.
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Re: walmart asking for chl

#139

Post by CCreyeder » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:23 pm

mojo84 wrote:
Apparently you missed the quote from Wal-Mart corporate and TABC.
No, I did not miss it. Perhaps "buy" is not the correct term. I absolutely believe that the lawyers at WM feel this is the best approach for them to limit their liability. And, that is perfectly fine by me, they have to do what they feel is in their best interests. Not the approach I would take, but it is not my lic on the line either. What I DO find curious, is that if this (the TABC thing) is such a concern, why are not every corner convenience store, liquor store, Kroger, etc.. anyone also selling alcohol for off premises consumption, not also doing the same thing? Who knows, maybe they will take WMs lead and start doing it as well.

As I said, I really dont see this being an issue for me for the above stated reasons. More of a food for thought kind of thing. No controversy from me. I believe they have the right to ask, I am perfectly fine and not upset at all, if they ask me to leave once I refuse.

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Re: walmart asking for chl

#140

Post by mojo84 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:33 pm

CCreyeder wrote:
mojo84 wrote:
Apparently you missed the quote from Wal-Mart corporate and TABC.
No, I did not miss it. Perhaps "buy" is not the correct term. I absolutely believe that the lawyers at WM feel this is the best approach for them to limit their liability. And, that is perfectly fine by me, they have to do what they feel is in their best interests. Not the approach I would take, but it is not my lic on the line either. What I DO find curious, is that if this (the TABC thing) is such a concern, why are not every corner convenience store, liquor store, Kroger, etc.. anyone also selling alcohol for off premises consumption, not also doing the same thing? Who knows, maybe they will take WMs lead and start doing it as well.

As I said, I really dont see this being an issue for me for the above stated reasons. More of a food for thought kind of thing. No controversy from me. I believe they have the right to ask, I am perfectly fine and not upset at all, if they ask me to leave once I refuse.
Why do some follow the letter and intent of the law closer than others? I don't know but some do.

I can tell you, I operate my business differently than any other insirance agency of which I'm aware.

Another question for you. Why are some retailers willing to risk their license by selling to minors? Growing up, we had a number of stores where we could buy all the beer we wanted.
Last edited by mojo84 on Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: walmart asking for chl

#141

Post by flintknapper » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:36 pm

I need to run into town tomorrow and pick up some things. Walmart is on my list of places to go.

IF they want to verify that I have a LTC, I am happy to comply. Walmart (at least where I live) is about as 2A friendly as it comes.

I appreciate their efforts to accommodate OCers and welcome the opportunity to be an ambassador for this group.

I will report back here...IF there is anything to tell. I expect it will be a non-event....just as it was the first time I went there.
Spartans ask not how many, but where!


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Re: walmart asking for chl

#142

Post by HKsig » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:40 pm

I was at WalMart today OCing and no one bothered me about it. I have no problem showing my LTC if asked either.

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Re: walmart asking for chl

#143

Post by Crossfire » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:47 pm

I don't plan to open carry in public. At least not outside of teaching classes, or maybe at church, or other places where I am among friends. And yes, I do have a nice Level 2 retention holster. But, I am not comfortable with the thought of having to fight someone for my openly carried firearm. So, I plan on keeping it covered up still.

So, this whole Walmart thing really does not affect me. But, it does just rub me the wrong way. Perhaps because I have done enough IT Support in Walmart stores to know what kind of people we are talking about, for the most part. And they don't need to know anymore about me than they already do.

Oh, and to answer a previous question... I don't write checks to Walmart. And I don't swipe a card there if I don't have to. Again, IT Support. I know more than I should about their operations. And, just so you know, I am not picking on Walmart. Same goes for Target. But they aren't asking for proof of my LTC... yet.
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Re: walmart asking for chl

#144

Post by Jason73 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:52 pm

TABC rules state that an establishment will have it's liquor license revoked if the license holder permits an individual to possess an unlicensed handgun in the establishment.

When an individual carries concealed into an establishment that sells liquor, the proprietor is unaware of the gun. If any issues arise, the establishment's license is not in jeopardy because, given that the gun was concealed, they were unaware of it and cannot be penalized.

In the case of open carry, the moment the individual steps through the door, the proprietor IS aware of the gun because it's in plain sight. If they allow the patron to remain in the establishment without verifying the legal status of the handgun, they are in violation of the TABC regulation prohibiting unlicensed handguns on the premises.

They are legally obligated to ask if you you have a LTC per the TABC, this gives them the authority to ask for your license.

In short, if you're going to open carry in any establishment that has a liquor license, be prepared to show your LTC. If you have an issue with this, cover your weapon, leave it in the car, or don't go there in the first place.
Last edited by Jason73 on Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: walmart asking for chl

#145

Post by Archery1 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:53 pm

:thumbs2:
warnmar10 wrote:
mojo84 wrote:Why do you think they do not have a right to ask? The government makes them liable if someone openly carries a gun without a license. Do you not think there are certain terms and conditions under which you enter their property?

By the way, just to illustrate they do have a right to ask, can I see a copy of your LTC? What is your shoe size? What is the name of your first girlfriend? What is your home phone number?

See, I have a right to ask you anything. You have the right to answer or not. In the case of Wal-Mart and you don't show your LTC, they have the right to ask you to leave. Pretty simple really.
Is it the case that the holder of a liquor license is obligated to ask an open carrier to see his LTC? I asked earlier and I think my question was buried. I get that "the store" can ask for whatever reason but are they obliged to? What happens to the liquor license holder if they don't ID open carriers?
I would assume that nothing happens if they don't ask, assuming the TABC exemption for CC carried over to OC. IOW, it's not against the law. CC, they just had no way of knowing there was a gun in the store. Once they know, they can either assume it's legal and take their chance that it is or determine it's legal. They have no legal obligation, just risk.


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Re: walmart asking for chl

#146

Post by chuck j » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:02 pm

It is my assumption that this is Walmart's way of trying to get you to conceal carry instead of having to 'prove' you can open carry . Passive coercion , no signs .

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Re: walmart asking for chl

#147

Post by warnmar10 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:19 pm

chuck j wrote:It is my assumption that this is Walmart's way of trying to get you to conceal carry instead of having to 'prove' you can open carry . Passive coercion , no signs .
The reason I asked if the liquor license holder is obligated to ask the open carrier if he's legal is that my neighborhood Walmart didn't seem to be doing that this afternoon. FWIW, I've only witnessed two open carry people since the 1/1 and both were at my neighborhood Walmart where nobody else seemed to notice and I don't care.
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Re: walmart asking for chl

#148

Post by Keith B » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:46 pm

I believe the 'well, we have to make sure the person is legal' is a cop-out. Since open carry is legal, even though it requires a license, then no one should have reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally openly carrying a handgun. If there is probable cause to indicate the person may not be legal, then they can ask the person to leave, OR, they can call the police and advise why they feel this person needs to be checked out. TABC needs to accept that a licensee shouldn't have to confront someone who is more than likely legally carrying openly.
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flintknapper
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Re: walmart asking for chl

#149

Post by flintknapper » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:04 pm

Postby Keith B » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:46 pm

I believe the 'well, we have to make sure the person is legal' is a cop-out. Since open carry is legal, even though it requires a license, then no one should have reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally openly carrying a handgun. If there is probable cause to indicate the person may not be legal, then they can ask the person to leave, OR, they can call the police and advise why they feel this person needs to be checked out. TABC needs to accept that a licensee shouldn't have to confront someone who is more than likely legally carrying openly.
^^^^^^^

I agree with this Keith and it certainly represents the 'ideal'.

We will see how it all plays out. For the present....I will comply with any requests to show my LTC from this business.

I know some folks will be shocked to hear this, but I am not without the ability to compromise.
Spartans ask not how many, but where!


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Re: walmart asking for chl

#150

Post by Archery1 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:12 pm

Keith B wrote:I believe the 'well, we have to make sure the person is legal' is a cop-out. Since open carry is legal, even though it requires a license, then no one should have reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally openly carrying a handgun. If there is probable cause to indicate the person may not be legal, then they can ask the person to leave, OR, they can call the police and advise why they feel this person needs to be checked out. TABC needs to accept that a licensee shouldn't have to confront someone who is more than likely legally carrying openly.
This sounds reasonable enough. The open gun should speak for itself unless they felt they are also obligated to ask everyone to lift and show they are not CC also. If they feel it's their obligation to only allow legal guns in, then CC is also a gun. I guess they hang their reasoning on the knowing there is a gun part of it.

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