Where do I find....?

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ELB
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Where do I find....?

#1

Post by ELB » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:42 pm

...the section of Texas statute that deals with legally displaying a pistol to effect self-defense before actually being in imminent threat of deadly force? I know it has been discussed here, but I don't even know what terms to use to search for it. In the statutes it does not seem to appear in Chapter 9, so not sure where else to look.
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joe817
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Re: Where do I find....?

#2

Post by joe817 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:53 pm

Does this address your question? :

" PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE
.
The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter
.
For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by
the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor’s purpose is limited
to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not
constitute the use of deadly force. "

http://www.dps.texas.gov/InternetForms/Forms/CHL-16.pdf
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Re: Where do I find....?

#3

Post by NotRPB » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:54 pm

:iagree:
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... m/PE.9.htm
Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

Also see:

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.46.htm
Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) or (a-1) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of force or deadly force under Chapter 9.

Text of subsection as amended by Acts 2015, 84th Leg., R.S., Ch. 438 (S.B. 11), Sec. 4

(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a), (a-1), (a-2), or (a-3) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of force or deadly force under Chapter 9.

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Re: Where do I find....?

#4

Post by ELB » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:07 pm

Yes, that's it! Thanks!

I was looking too far down in the statute.

Altho I don't have a link handy, apparently Oklahoma passed a "defensive display" bill this year that accomplishes a similar purpose.
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Re: Where do I find....?

#5

Post by Abraham » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:24 am

Is "disparity of force" in there somewhere?

As in: A young, strong, healthy guy is going to bodily attack an elderly guy with fists and general beatdown?

Just yesterday, while grocery shopping, two young guys suddenly came up behind me speaking very loudly, startling me and being startled, I quickly turned around to see them staring at me as if they startled me deliberately and expected me to be cowed by their behavior or acted belligerent justifying (in their minds) attacking me .

After seeing they weren't about to attack, I turned back to my grocery list. They walked past me, staring hard at me as if trying to intimidate. I ignored them, but until they went out of view they acted weirdly intimidating. I had done nothing to provoke them, ah, except existing and breathing. I'm sure had I rebuked them in any way they would've jumped me.

I never felt a need to fill my hand, but no doubt if they attacked me, I would've been forced to...I'm to old to take a beating, especially from two young, strong thugs.

The world of bullies, never mind terrorists, still exists...

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Re: Where do I find....?

#6

Post by ELB » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:37 am

Abraham wrote:Is "disparity of force" in there somewhere?

...
Not directly. But:

"The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter."

and

"It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a), (a-1), (a-2), or (a-3) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of force or deadly force under Chapter 9."

"Disparity of force" would be one of the factors in deciding if you justified in using or threatening to use force or deadly force.
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Re: Where do I find....?

#7

Post by Abraham » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:20 am

Still musing on yesterday...

I wondered what would prompt two young guys into wanting to attempt to strike fear into me.

I don't dress oddly, am quiet (can't speak any longer, though they didn't know that) didn't in any way act
(as far as I know) obnoxious in any manner, therefore needed some sort of comeuppance. Nor, do I project my own brand of strutting, bullying behavior. I was just some old fart buying groceries.

When I was a young guy, I would've been embarrassed to act ugly/intimidating to an older/yes elderly guy.

What's the point?

Acting like a tough guy when your target isn't much (in appearance anyway) of a challenge just mystifies me unless maybe they were a couple of sociopaths, which is of course quite possible...

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Re: Where do I find....?

#8

Post by C-dub » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:27 am

Abraham wrote:Still musing on yesterday...

I wondered what would prompt two young guys into wanting to attempt to strike fear into me.
.
Were there any young ladies around?
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Re: Where do I find....?

#9

Post by Abraham » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:38 pm

C-dub,

No, none and had there been maybe their odd behavior could partially be explained, adolescent style of showing off to impress women, but I can't see any young lady being positively impressed by attempting to bully an old guy, disgusted yes, but not positively impressed...

And as far as I know I don't know those two (middle to late twenties) guys from anywhere.

I don't go to bars or even leave the homestead very often except to run an errand now and then. Heck, it's been almost two years since we've been to restaurant. I go to Walmart about once a month and that's about the sum total of my getting out. Mostly, I stay home and yard work and exterior house maintenance. Ah, interior too...I love my new vacuum cleaner. And my still fairly new washing machine and dryer are the bees knees.

SWMBO does the majority of the grocery shopping, while I go to Walmart to buy heavy stuff I wouldn't want her to have to handle, plus, I don't like her driving my truck as her parking habits have left dings all over her car and I park waaaaaaay away from other cars to prevent such. She moans when we go together because she may have to walk a hundred yards or so to get into where we're going. I park where getting a door ding is unlikely. If she could park inside the store, she would... I love my truck as it's a thing of beauty and a joy for as long as I remain above ground.

So, since I'm pretty much a home body, I remain perplexed about budding thugs who I haven't the vaguest clue how I could've provoked or incited their threatening behavior.

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Re: Where do I find....?

#10

Post by C-dub » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:25 am

IDK then.

I've been told by a few of my 15y daughter's friends that I'm a big ole scary man. The same sort of rumor as going around my 16y little sister's high school after I came home from the Navy (except for the ole part) way back when and suddenly all the problem boys stopped bothering my sister.

I told my daughter that we should just leave that big ole scary man reputation alone and that'll work well for me over the next few years while she's in high school.

I'm not sure how much that wold assist me in the general public since there are bound to be "kids" the likes of which you ran into, but I also have a lower key approach to people like that nowadays. Who knows what set these punks off?
I am not and have never been a LEO. My avatar is in honor of my friend, Dallas Police Sargent Michael Smith, who was murdered along with four other officers in Dallas on 7.7.2016.
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Re: Where do I find....?

#11

Post by Jusme » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:58 am

Abraham wrote:Still musing on yesterday...

I wondered what would prompt two young guys into wanting to attempt to strike fear into me.

I don't dress oddly, am quiet (can't speak any longer, though they didn't know that) didn't in any way act
(as far as I know) obnoxious in any manner, therefore needed some sort of comeuppance. Nor, do I project my own brand of strutting, bullying behavior. I was just some old fart buying groceries.

When I was a young guy, I would've been embarrassed to act ugly/intimidating to an older/yes elderly guy.

What's the point?

Acting like a tough guy when your target isn't much (in appearance anyway) of a challenge just mystifies me unless maybe they were a couple of sociopaths, which is of course quite possible...

Yeah they could be sociopaths, but more than likely just insecure youngsters, with a "mini" mob mentality, who believe that by looking, and acting intimidating, they have somehow overcome their own shortcomings.

I too would have never done or said anything, as a youth, to try to disrespect, or intimidate anyone older, than myself. But, I was taught respect, and that is sorely lacking in today' young folks. Some has to do with the breakdown in the core family unit, while others just have not been taught any better.
My 19 year old, won't say "boo" to an older adult, and only responds with "yes sir/ma'am" or "no sir/ma'am" when addressed. He is no shrinking violet, he is 6'-2" and 225lbs, but you won't even know he's around, because we taught him proper respect, and manners. JMHO
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Re: Where do I find....?

#12

Post by n5wd » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:23 am

Abraham wrote: ...since I'm pretty much a home body, I remain perplexed about budding thugs who I haven't the vaguest clue how I could've provoked or incited their threatening behavior.
Here's another thought. What you chose to believe was aggressive intimidation could have been just two dudes "acting a fool" and hadn't even noticed you until you were startled by their behavior and reacted in a totally different way than they thought anyone around them should.

I've found, due to my close association with adolescents as a teacher in a public high school, that most of the time thry don't even SEE people that they aren't directly interacting with, much less have awareness of how other people around them are viewing their actions.

How else to explain the young man I observed reaching into his pocket in a school hallway, pulling out a marijuana cigarette and handing it to thefriend he was walking and conversing with, no more than 10 feet directly in front of me standing a "post" in the hallway.

They often really don't realize who else is around them a good portion of their time.
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Re: Where do I find....?

#13

Post by Bodeneth » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:10 am

ELB wrote:
Abraham wrote:Is "disparity of force" in there somewhere?

...
Not directly. But:

"The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter."

and

"It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a), (a-1), (a-2), or (a-3) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of force or deadly force under Chapter 9."

"Disparity of force" would be one of the factors in deciding if you justified in using or threatening to use force or deadly force.
This is all good stuff.....only thing is.... my attorney states that if you ever have to display your gun to try and dissuade a potential attacker from attacking you, you should always call 911 immediately afterward and notify the police that someone was threatening an attack on you and that you had to display (not pull or point) your gun to stop their attack. Otherwise, the bad guy, since he now knows you are armed, can and often will call 911 and tell them you are a crazy person who pointed a gun at them. You'd possibly go to jail. Altho your atty would likely get you off the charges, it would be a real pain in the rear to deal with considering you were the actual victim.

If you are the first to call 911 in that situation, you probably would not be arrested, even if the bad guy called in second, saying you pointed a gun at them. The key is, be the first to call.
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