Self defense isurance

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crazy2medic
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Self defense isurance

#1

Post by crazy2medic » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:32 pm

I think I may have found a self defence insurance I'm comfortable with, however in the spirit of being overtly cautious, is there anywhere I can find a independent evaluation of the pros/cons and ratings of the offerings?
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Tex1961
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Re: Self defense isurance

#2

Post by Tex1961 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:02 pm

The problem as I have both read about and have experienced (same as you) is that there hasn't been a lot of actual case's to compare. All you can really do is go with your gut instinct as far as which one sounds the best to your situation and budget.
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Re: Self defense isurance

#3

Post by MechAg94 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:35 pm

Yeah, that is the rub. If you have a lawyer right from the start and you are actually thinking about all this ahead of time, your odds of getting dragged into court go down considerably. They count it as a win if they never get that far (I would also).

I would simply look at what they are offering and decide if that is what you need. For me, I wanted to make sure the service got me a lawyer immediately and was able to help with bail (within limits) without any immediate out-of-pocket cost to me. I think most of those you hear about do that, but I have heard some services are true insurance and only reimburse those expenses after you are cleared. That sort of thing was a big concern for me.


twomillenium
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Re: Self defense isurance

#4

Post by twomillenium » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:44 pm

Make sure that your are aware of self defense insurance and pre-paid legal service. There is a difference.
Texas LTC Instructor, NRA pistol instructor, RSO, NRA Endowment Life , TSRA, Glock enthusiast (tho I have others)
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crazy2medic
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Re: Self defense isurance

#5

Post by crazy2medic » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:55 pm

twomillenium wrote:Make sure that your are aware of self defense insurance and pre-paid legal service. There is a difference.
I had prepaid legal when I was at the fire dept. so I know the difference, funny thing was they would cover just about anything unless it involved the city and then they'd bow out!
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention


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crazy2medic
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Re: Self defense isurance

#6

Post by crazy2medic » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:02 pm

Thanks for your input guys!
Government, like fire is a dangerous servant and a fearful master
If you ain't paranoid you ain't paying attention


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Re: Self defense isurance

#7

Post by Interblog » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:52 am

The Texas-named service (the forum redacts its name) had a representative stop at our LTC class to make a sales pitch (this was a few weeks ago). Reading this thread, I wish I'd asked him to describe any cases in which the insured actually had to call upon their service. What we heard instead were anecdotes involving people who had to go in front of a grand jury, etc. without the benefit of a pre-paid service. Which, of course, is often very expensive, even if charges are not brought.


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Re: Self defense isurance

#8

Post by sailor2000 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:07 am

Some of these contracts promise to provide you a lawyer they pick, others provide payment for a lawyer you pick up to the limits of the policy. Some pay as you go, others only offer reimbursement after you have paid. Remembering the words of a CHL instructor and attorney who also happens to be one of the founders of this forum, he said something like this, “I wouldn’t want an attorney defending me who’s retainer was less than $30,000”. Not usually having $30,000 in loose change handy, I am enrolled with a company that offers up to $250,000 criminal defense for the attorney of your choice and they pay the attorney directly rather than reimbursing you later and $50000 in up front bail bond payment.

Read the fine print and do your research.
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Re: Self defense isurance

#9

Post by oljames3 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:24 pm

My wife and I are members of a service. As has been said, read the details and do your due diligence. The service we joined meets our needs. I have met and talked with the attorney who would represent me at several of the seminars the service provides. I have discussed his experience and record. He has recounted the general aspects of several of his cases. He has told me that he will answer my call at any time of day and meet me as soon as possible. I live in Elgin, he lives on the north side of San Antonio. I am confident we would be well represented. The service also provides for bail and expert witness expenses. We are covered in all 50 states for all legal weapons. The service also covers negligent discharges as well as appeals.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
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superstar
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Re: Self defense isurance

#10

Post by superstar » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:51 pm

twomillenium wrote:Make sure that your are aware of self defense insurance and pre-paid legal service. There is a difference.
+1 million. This!

From one of those shields sites... " This Legal Service Contract is not an insurance contract." "...is not a law firm and any legal services are provided by independent third-party contracting attorneys."

Think about that. You might as well put aside a little money for the a problem arises fund. The attorney can not represent you when your case goes to the grand jury, it is just you, the grand jury and the prosecutor presenting the case, and if it is a bill then that's when I would start looking for one and not what a legal service would recommend.


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Re: Self defense isurance

#11

Post by rotor » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:01 pm

superstar wrote:
twomillenium wrote:Make sure that your are aware of self defense insurance and pre-paid legal service. There is a difference.
+1 million. This!

From one of those shields sites... " This Legal Service Contract is not an insurance contract." "...is not a law firm and any legal services are provided by independent third-party contracting attorneys."

Think about that. You might as well put aside a little money for the a problem arises fund. The attorney can not represent you when your case goes to the grand jury, it is just you, the grand jury and the prosecutor presenting the case, and if it is a bill then that's when I would start looking for one and not what a legal service would recommend.
Apparently an attorney can't go with you into a grand jury regardless of the service used. So that part doesn't matter. How much is a little money? $30,000 is more than a little money. I don't know the answer to the question as to what method of prepaid or insurance is best and I have never heard of anyone involved with a legal issue complain about their service. I think these are profit making services for those groups sponsoring it.
I think ideally that we would need to hear from LTC holders that have been involved with "the law" as to how their experience actually was with these plans. Since we are all such outstanding citizens there are probably very few of us that could relate to those services. I would like to keep it that way.


superstar
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Re: Self defense isurance

#12

Post by superstar » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:25 pm

rotor wrote: Apparently an attorney can't go with you into a grand jury regardless of the service used. So that part doesn't matter. How much is a little money? $30,000 is more than a little money. I don't know the answer to the question as to what method of prepaid or insurance is best and I have never heard of anyone involved with a legal issue complain about their service. I think these are profit making services for those groups sponsoring it.
I think ideally that we would need to hear from LTC holders that have been involved with "the law" as to how their experience actually was with these plans. Since we are all such outstanding citizens there are probably very few of us that could relate to those services. I would like to keep it that way.
Let's say you get the service with Multi-state, bail bond plus the one time fee of $20 + $200 = $220. Anyone here believe that by paying $200 annually will get you a $30K legal service (that's the general consensus here of a competent lawyer's fee) should think about that again.

They should read and inquire about those "expert testimonials fee, court fees, etc fees" and speak to the actual attorney that might be representing them. I believe that most LTC holders are here to follow the law of the land, mores and will probably won't need those services, but there are some that just need that piece of mind when they pay for something that they think it will be an all inclusive package. As others noted. Read and if something is not clear to you, call and ask. They should time how long it takes for them to get a clear response that might be a good indicative point if they call for legal help.


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Re: Self defense isurance

#13

Post by Soccerdad1995 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:37 pm

superstar wrote:
rotor wrote: Apparently an attorney can't go with you into a grand jury regardless of the service used. So that part doesn't matter. How much is a little money? $30,000 is more than a little money. I don't know the answer to the question as to what method of prepaid or insurance is best and I have never heard of anyone involved with a legal issue complain about their service. I think these are profit making services for those groups sponsoring it.
I think ideally that we would need to hear from LTC holders that have been involved with "the law" as to how their experience actually was with these plans. Since we are all such outstanding citizens there are probably very few of us that could relate to those services. I would like to keep it that way.
Let's say you get the service with Multi-state, bail bond plus the one time fee of $20 + $200 = $220. Anyone here believe that by paying $200 annually will get you a $30K legal service (that's the general consensus here of a competent lawyer's fee) should think about that again.

They should read and inquire about those "expert testimonials fee, court fees, etc fees" and speak to the actual attorney that might be representing them. I believe that most LTC holders are here to follow the law of the land, mores and will probably won't need those services, but there are some that just need that piece of mind when they pay for something that they think it will be an all inclusive package. As others noted. Read and if something is not clear to you, call and ask. They should time how long it takes for them to get a clear response that might be a good indicative point if they call for legal help.
$200 per year multiplied by the extremely low probability that the service gets used? Sure, they can easily afford a good lawyer for you. It's just like insurance. Do I really think that the insurance company will pay me $400,000 to replace my house if it burns down even though I am only paying a tiny fraction of that amount in annual premiums? Why yes, I do. Should I think about that again? Maybe, but I will probably reach the same conclusion.

The fact is that if you want to self insure for these risks, you can (where legally allowed). And you will probably be better off. The exact amount that you will probably be better off is equal to the insurance companies overhead costs + profit divided by the number of policy holders (otherwise known as Expected Value, or EV). To put it in terms of statistics / gambling, your EV is higher by self insuring (unless you find an insurance company with really bad actuaries), but your variance is also dramatically lower by insuring. You are paying the insurance company for this reduction in variance.
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oljames3
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Re: Self defense isurance

#14

Post by oljames3 » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:38 pm

superstar wrote:
rotor wrote: Apparently an attorney can't go with you into a grand jury regardless of the service used. So that part doesn't matter. How much is a little money? $30,000 is more than a little money. I don't know the answer to the question as to what method of prepaid or insurance is best and I have never heard of anyone involved with a legal issue complain about their service. I think these are profit making services for those groups sponsoring it.
I think ideally that we would need to hear from LTC holders that have been involved with "the law" as to how their experience actually was with these plans. Since we are all such outstanding citizens there are probably very few of us that could relate to those services. I would like to keep it that way.
Let's say you get the service with Multi-state, bail bond plus the one time fee of $20 + $200 = $220. Anyone here believe that by paying $200 annually will get you a $30K legal service (that's the general consensus here of a competent lawyer's fee) should think about that again.

They should read and inquire about those "expert testimonials fee, court fees, etc fees" and speak to the actual attorney that might be representing them. I believe that most LTC holders are here to follow the law of the land, mores and will probably won't need those services, but there are some that just need that piece of mind when they pay for something that they think it will be an all inclusive package. As others noted. Read and if something is not clear to you, call and ask. They should time how long it takes for them to get a clear response that might be a good indicative point if they call for legal help.
I am confident that the plan to which my wife and I subscribe will provide competent and effective representation. I have received quick answers to all my questions and calls.

I have met, and spoken at length with, the plan attorney who would represent me. He, as well as one of the plan's primary expert witnesses, speaks at seminars regularly. We have discusses prices, coverages, and expectations. Anyone who is interested in this plan's coverage can easily do the same.
O. Lee James, III Captain, US Army (Retired 2012), Honorable Order of St. Barbara
2/19FA, 1st Cavalry Division 73-78; 56FA BDE (Pershing) 78-81
NRA Distinguished Life Member (Disabled Vet), TSRA, NAR L1


Interblog
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Re: Self defense isurance

#15

Post by Interblog » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:48 pm

superstar wrote:...

Let's say you get the service with Multi-state, bail bond plus the one time fee of $20 + $200 = $220. Anyone here believe that by paying $200 annually will get you a $30K legal service (that's the general consensus here of a competent lawyer's fee) should think about that again.

...
It depends on their cash flow structure, though, doesn't it?

I have a family member who carries $200,000 worth of life insurance for which the annual premium is about $200 per year. If that person were to die, there would be a $200,000 pay-out, period. The actuarial tables exist which describe that scenario. Presumably these self-defense insurance companies have developed similar risk matrices for their own use, because all it would take is one bad review on social media and their whole business model would go swirling down the commode. They have a huge vested interest in effectively representing their clients, I would think.

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